Free Will, Where Does It Come From?

[Whaleboy]

Drogue: Agreed, however his stance on moral relativism and postmodernism is something I cannot agree with, and seems to be in contradiction with the rest of his work, if you take it forward to a diabolical degree.

[Drogue]

Haven't read it in detail (will do tonight, if I can't see Louise ) so I just got an idea of his views. And anything taken to a diabolical degree won't be good

[Whaleboy]

What about evil?

[Drogue]

What about evil? If you take it to a diabolical degree, it would be bad, due to the nature of the word diabolical. However that wouldn't be very far, since almost any degree of evil is diabolical.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Drogue

Actually no. Steven Hawking has been quoted that he believes in determinism. Not because the future has already been decided, but because humans, when you put them in exactly the same position, will do exactly the same thing. Sure, it's chaotic, so a tiny difference in position could mean any size of difference in consequence, but in exactly the same position there would be no difference. If you knew the exact location and velocity of every particle, then you would be able to predict the movement of everything. Sure, it's impossible to know that, due to uncertainty principle, but the fact that if you were to know it, you could predict the future, means the future cannot change. Therefore, while the future is determined, in that we cannot alter it, as what we will choose in every situation will be what we choose, and we won't deviate from that, it is impossible to know the future. While it's deterministic, we can never know what it is that is determined, so in reality it has no practical use.

Also, you may want to read something on complexity theory. Bits of that suggest determinism, because as things can be chaotic on one level (such as the behavior of an individual human) they can be predictable on a higher level (such as the behaviour of humanity, as a whole). Just because quantum experiments are chaotic (which does not rule out determinism, just the ability to predict) does not mean that their effects on a larger scale are not predictable. They can be - "order for free".

Funny Isaac Asimov proposed this via his Foundation books long before Hawking, 'course he was ripping off quantum theory at the time.

That being said the ability to predict an individual humans behavior is a much more difficult proposition than that of a large statistical body.

[Whaleboy]

What about evil? If you take it to a diabolical degree, it would be bad, due to the nature of the word diabolical. However that wouldn't be very far, since almost any degree of evil is diabolical.

Nah, evil taken to a diabolical degree can't possibly be bad

That being said the ability to predict an individual humans behavior is a much more difficult proposition than that of a large statistical body.

Or many small statistical bodies

[Drogue]

Ogie: That's the point. It is very hard, if not impossible, to predict. The fact that it cannot be changed is the issue though. If the future is decided, we have no free will. Well we do, but it is already known what we will decide

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Agreed,

Notice I said much more difficult to predict not impossible.

Although by predicting a future outcome, the outcome may indeed be altered, yet still fixed via the summation of outcomes in all alternate unvierses.

[Drogue]

Ah, but if we try to predict the outcome, then the determined future already knows we will try to predict it, so the future will already reflect that. Trying to predict it is simply another action

[BeBMan]

I read an interesting article about free will a while ago. I can't claim to be an authority in that field, but here's (IIRC) what it said:

First, it claimed that philosophically it is impossible to prove that we are acting deterministically or not.

However, in neurobiology it is doubted that we have a free will (although there's still no ultimate proof for or against a free will).

The common view of free will is that an act of (free) will is the cause for an action. However, there are neurobiological experiments which suggests that this is not true, mostly known the "Libet-Experiment" from the 1980ies. It was found out there that a "readiness potential" builts up in the brain shortly before a decision to act. So, if the decision to act is made after this built-up of the "readiness potential" it cannot be an act of free will.

However, Libet's experiment cannot count as final proof, since there it can be criticised in several ways - for example the test persons were trained for make certain actions (to press test buttons) in very short time, so critics believe that pre-trained actions do not require much of a free will anyway. Also, many said that there is a difference between a very simple decision (press button yes/no, or press button left/right) made within seconds and a difficult (for example moral) decision where you have days or weeks of time.

But one cannot ignore that many scientists think his experiment (which was re-done later, sometimes modified) does indeed indicate an absence of free will, and that free will is only an illusion.

OTOH, and here is something I don't understand yet, some neurobiologists, even when they argue that we do not have a free will, say at the same time this doesn't make us deterministic. They rather would say we are "autonomous" beings. I'm not sure about the concrete reasoning in this point. Maybe one could help me at this point, or recommend me a good book about it

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Drogue
Ah, but if we try to predict the outcome, then the determined future already knows we will try to predict it, so the future will already reflect that. Trying to predict it is simply another action

Isn't that what I said?

[Drogue]

Yes, but I don't like having to rely on "the summation of outcomes in all alternate unvierses" when I don't think there are any

[Solly]

BeBro - I've also studies referring back to something like that "readiness potential" you describe. Readiness potential can build at other times too and not be acted upon - what this means is that free will might be better described as "free won't".

I think all in this thread are vastly under-estimating the significance of consciousness.

[Drogue]

What is this conciousness you speak of?

What possibly evidence, even an inclination or a theory, have you got that there is a seperate 'soul'? A non-coporeal part of us that makes us concious? Where do your arguments come from?

I'm not saying conciousness isn't important, I'm just saying it is physical and energy states in the brain. What else could it be? What else is in your brain other than that?

[Solly]

"What is this conciousness you speak of?"

Subjectivity, awareness.

To begin with consciousness and the private universe we enjoy is indivisible. If we consider some form of reductionism, it makes sense that eventually there needs to be something that is indivisible.

The importance of the observer/consciousness in quantum experiments also leads me to believe you are underplaying its significance by describing it just a secondary phenomenon - rather than one of primary importance.