Free Will, Where Does It Come From?

[Drogue]

I agree with all that. It isn't a secodary phenominon. It is, however, chaotic, and thus given the same circumstances, it will react the same. We can choose, it is just what we have chosen that is already decided. The fact we are subjective helps this. We are subjective, because we cannot know what the future is. But if there was an objective, it would be possible. The conciousness is important, but that doesn't mean it's not determined. It is chaotic, not random.

[Solly]

(1) The science of physics defines for us what is meant by the term physical reality.

(2) Physics is based on data from physical measurements.

(3) Anything that cannot be physically measured is treated in physics as not having physical reality. Note in this regard that the major advances of 20th century physics -relativity, quantum mechanics, particle physics, and quantum thermodynamics, have all come from recognizing this subtle limitation that exists on the nature of physical measurement and physical reality.

(4) Therefore, if it is not possible to physically measure something, then it either does not exist, or we must treat it as being nonphysical.

(5) There exists something that, under certain circumstances, we experience and call pain (quite apart from any theory of consciousness, this is our basic datum).

(6) It is impossible to carry out any physical measurement to determine the answer to the meaningful (albeit facetious) question: Does an ice cube feel pain when it melts?

[I.e., does any given physical system have an associated conscious experience when that system undergoes any specified physical process?]

(7) Therefore, since the conscious experience of feeling pain exists (quite apart from any ability on our part to account for its nature), but cannot be physically measured (although so-called correlates of it can be measured), the consciousness of things like pain must lie outside the domain of physically reality.

Consciousness is real but nonphyslcal.

http://users.erols.com/wcri/CONSCIOUSNESS.html

[Solly]

"It is chaotic, not random."

ie, non-algorithmic?

[Drogue]

Yes, non-algorithmic.

While neither can be predict, the difference is that a random variable is just that, random. A chaotic variable, given exactly the same input, gives the same output. It is just that if the input changes at all, then the output can change by any amount. You cannot take an input and work out an output in a chaotic system, thus it cannot be predicted, but given the same input, it will give the same output. The latter does not work if it is random: given the same input, the output is still random.

[Rogan Josh]

1. Free-will is inconsistent with physics.

2. No free-will is inconsistent with morality.

[Ramo]

Maybe your morality, but not mine.

[Whaleboy]

Rogan: I'll take physics over morality anyday. Morality is merely an extension of our own personal emotive disposition and is nothing constant or absolute. I'd prefer to rely upon logical principles for my ethical decisions (though of course, its not a perfect world, and I dont).

[Rogan Josh]

If a person is no more than a collection of atoms, why is killing them (ie. rearranging these atoms a little) morally wrong?

[Ramo]

Because of how my moral system is strucutured. It's based on the idea that coercion is immoral (which is simply a description of my emotions, not somehow rationally derived from the nature of the physical world), thus killing a human being is immoral.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Free will is all about consciousness, and my definition of consciousness is based on this:

http://neurognosis.com/BS%20Theory%20(full%20version%20of%20Tuscon%20III% 20paper).rtf

Its an interesting read... very neuro-biological.

Edit: can't get link to work, just cut and paste

[DaShi]

That's alright, just reading the URL is enough.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Originally posted by DaShi
That's alright, just reading the URL is enough.

word

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
1. Free-will is inconsistent with physics.

2. No free-will is inconsistent with morality.

Let me finish the syllogism for you:

Therefore, there is no morality if physics is correct.

Hmm, elevator worked this morning. computer is working. Looks like morality is out. Damn!

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Ramo
Maybe your morality, but not mine.

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
If a person is no more than a collection of atoms, why is killing them (ie. rearranging these atoms a little) morally wrong?

Because we say it is. The same reason why anything is ever wrong. Because humans put contraints on themselves for the benefit of society.

[Rogan Josh]

Isn't that completely arbitrary?

Why is it not beneficial to society for you to be dead?

In other words, one has to make a subjective decision about what is 'good' in order to have a moral system. Notice the word 'decision' there - you can not make a decision without free-will. Therefore there is no morality without free-will.