Design your own political party

[Ben Kenobi]

Me?

Only when the mother's life is in danger, and they cannot save both through an emergency c-section. Most common case is ectopic pregnancy, and with those, all you need to do is to remove that portion of the fallopian tube with the unborn child inside. Yes, the child will not survive, but you will not be the cause of death.

fetus is so severely deformed that it will die at birth?

Benefits to the mother from a pregnancy carried to term vastly outweigh the risk to the mother from the abortion.

pregnant after being raped,

Unborn children should not be punished for the crime of their father. Depending on the desires of the mother, they should either help her take care of the child, or to put the child up for adoption.

[Kull]

So for those of you who are for abortion, would you be in favor of the mother-to-be of your child ignoring your wishes that the child be born and waiting until the last possible second and then undergoing a partial birth abortion in which your child makes it most of the way out of the womb - but the doctors keep the head inside the body and vacuum out it's brain before completing the birth process?

Just asking.

[Bosh]

Objecting to partial-birth abortions is silly. Why should the method make any difference if the result is the same? Either be against any method or none.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Objecting to partial-birth abortions is silly. Why should the method make any difference if the result is the same? Either be against any method or none.

The method makes a BIG difference, especially if birth is partly induced.

[JellyBean]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Why should let other countries decide our tariff policy? If we believe that having lower tariffs is better, say having low tariffs with developing countries, while they have a bit higher ones to build up nascent industies, why should we quash it?

Because they won't repeal their tariffs when their industries are no longer nascent. By the time an industry is that large, it can lobby the government to maintain the tariffs.

If you want to help a developing country, use aid. Leave trade free and fair.

[MrFun]

I am moderately pro-choice, and I find partial-birth abortion to be horrifying.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Because they won't repeal their tariffs when their industries are no longer nascent. By the time an industry is that large, it can lobby the government to maintain the tariffs.

Perhaps they will repeal their tariffs when the industries are built up, with some pressure. I don't think the US should raise its tariffs against developing countries when those countries are trying to develop like the US did in the beginning.

If you want to help a developing country, use aid. Leave trade free and fair.

Leave trade FREE by raising our tarriffs!

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
... all you need to do is to remove that portion of the fallopian tube with the unborn child inside. Yes, the child will not survive, but you will not be the cause of death.

What's the diff? The fetus is aborted.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Benefits to the mother from a pregnancy carried to term vastly outweigh the risk to the mother from the abortion.

Yeah, I saw your comments on that other thread. You ignore the psychological effects on the mother.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Unborn children should not be punished for the crime of their father. Depending on the desires of the mother, they should either help her take care of the child, or to put the child up for adoption.

So you think it is okay to punish the rape victim by forcing her to live with the pregnancy and to go through the additional pain and suffering of giving birth? Sounds rather heartless. You seem to care more about the fetus than you do about women.

[Jon Miller]

he cares more about the life of a person

than a little additional discomfort

Jon Miller

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kull
So for those of you who are for abortion, would you be in favor of the mother-to-be of your child ignoring your wishes that the child be born and waiting until the last possible second and then undergoing a partial birth abortion in which your child makes it most of the way out of the womb - but the doctors keep the head inside the body and vacuum out it's brain before completing the birth process?

Just asking.

Nope, I think these decisions should be made early. And I have no problems with laws that place time limits on abortions. Freedoms are never absolute.

As for women ignoring the man's wishes, ultimately, the woman is the one who decides simply because the woman is the one who is pregnant. The man should not be allowed to force a woman to do something.

If you were a woman, would you want someone to dictate your life?

[Kull]

Originally posted by Tingkai


If you were a woman, would you want someone to dictate your life?

If you were a fetus, would you want someone to dictate your life?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
he cares more about the life of a person

than a little additional discomfort

A little additional discomfort? So you think that rape is just a "discomfort"? Do you not realise the brutality of rape?

Think about it for a second. Try to imagine someone holding you down and shoving their fist up your butt. would you describe that as a discomfort. Imagine the pain, physical and mental.

And describing giving birth as just a discomfort is a joke. Tell that to a mother and ask her to demonstrate on you the pain of childbirth.

This just shows the hypocrisy of the pro-lifers. They talk on and on about respecting human life, yet they turn a blind eye to the suffering that they would cause.

[Ben Kenobi]

What's the diff? The fetus is aborted.

Ever hear of the doctrine of double effect? It's a rather crucial point in medical ethics.

Yeah, I saw your comments on that other thread. You ignore the psychological effects on the mother.

Of abortion? Brevity prevented me from further comments as to the psychological effects of abortion. Japher and I had a conversation about them via PM.

So you think it is okay to punish the rape victim by forcing her to live with the pregnancy and to go through the additional pain and suffering of giving birth? Sounds rather heartless. You seem to care more about the fetus than you do about women.

Women are 6 times more likely to commit suicide after an abortion, than after pregnancy. Clearly, abortion has profound psychological effects, much more than those of a pregnancy. How is it heartless to avoid pain?

Secondly, you have to consider the point of Jon's, that a human life is worth more than discomfort. Why should this be any different for the mother during her pregnancy, as it is for her afterwards?

Think about it for a second. Try to imagine someone holding you down and shoving their fist up your butt. would you describe that as a discomfort. Imagine the pain, physical and mental.

Why do you think women need a laminaria inserted during an abortion? Re-read your comment, and ask me if the same comments could not be made with respect to abortion, as they are for pregnancy.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kull
If you were a fetus, would you want someone to dictate your life?

You assume that a fetus can think. That'a big assumption. In the early stages of pregnancy, when the fetus's brain has not even developed, do you think it can think?

Of course, the brain eventually develops. Then we get into an argument about when thought actually develops.

So we end up with two conflicting rights, the rights of the mother and the rights of the fetus. Which takes priority? I say the individual has the right to decide. It is their life.

And don't tell me about how the fetus is a potential life. So is sperm.

Telling a woman she can't have an abortion is like telling a man he can't masterbate because he is destroying a potential life.

[Kull]

Tingkai:

Obviously I'm tweaking you to some extent. Like everything thing else in life, there are probably events in which abortion - as terrible as it is - may be the least of two evils. But the reality is that the vast majority do not involve raped women or incest or "life of the mother" or any of the other bogeymen conjured up by the "pro-choice" crowd. 95%+ is infanticide performed purely for the convenience of the mother. That's the reality and cloaking it with highfalutin' words doesn't change the fact.

As an aside, I often wonder how many of those who actually approve of this are parents? Once you have a child, it really changes your perceptions. Pregnancy and birth are no longer deabating propositions - rather they are the most REAL events you'll ever participate in.

But here's the real deal. With a few exceptions, these pregnancies didn't involve the involuntary participation of the mother and they didn't come from the immaculate conception. Even if the woman made a mistake or a bad decision, the fact is it was her voluntary action that resulted in the pregnancy. If you have a bad day and beat someone up, all the excuses in the world won't prevent the legal system from holding you accountable. Same if you're the most wonderful person on the planet but get drunk and kill someone. YOUR actions, YOUR consequences.

So why do women get a pass here? Why is murder OK for them?

And I already know the answer from the least rabid of the pro choicers (the pure mom-can-kill-it-right-up-to-7-months crowd are so fixated on mom's convenience they might as well just push for legal infanticide and be done with it):

"It's not murder because it's just a collection of cells, or else it's not viable outside the womb", or some argument to that effect. But what happens as medical science improves and viability gets pushed from 6 months to 5 to 4 to....well, ultimately, the point when we can actually grow an entire human in an artificial womb? Then it's NEVER non-viable! So what do you say then?

Abortion is an awful thing, and many of those who've had one are scarred for life as a result. The choice being made is to not give someone a chance at life. Which is an astounding postion for so many people to take - especially those on the left who will go through contortions to come down on the human rights side of every issue - except when it involves the pre-born.

(and my sincere apologies to Lancer for participating in the hijack of a very interesting thread)