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  • #61
    Originally posted by PLATO
    GePap, To what do you attribute a large turnout combined with the failure of the unions to produce? Could this be interpreted as a positive statement on the economy?
    Not if you look at Ben's post about whom those who thought the economy was the bigegst concern voted for, Kerry and Edwards, the big winners.

    The large turnout was probably due to the fludity of the race, and the late rally for Kerry and Edwards What one does see is the utter failure of gephardt's portectionist arguements, which is just as well, becuase they were not going to go far in a general election.
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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    • #62
      This is a very intersting chart:



      Kerry almost won every single category, age group, demographic there was, even in the first time voter area, or internet savy.

      The most striking is that he got 71% support out of those who thought the right kind of experience was needed- which must mean his military service, while Dean did horribly.

      I think Dean has to stop focusing on his anti-war stand and move towards talking about his record as vermont governor- he, unike Kerry or Edwards, has a record of running something bigger than an office, and it is a very good record at that. This shows that his vaunted organization was not there working very well in Iowa. Of course, the freaky form of this primary was bad for him (and after all, only 120,000 people showed up), but he has to refocus for NH.
      If you don't like reality, change it! me
      "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
      "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
      "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

      Comment


      • #63
        Well ain't this a kick in the head?


        Dean and Clark are in deep trouble. I never, ever, ever would have thought Edwards would be anything more than a footnote in this race.
        "My nation is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine
        "The subject of onanism is inexhaustable." --Sigmund Freud

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Guynemer
          Well ain't this a kick in the head?


          Dean and Clark are in deep trouble. I never, ever, ever would have thought Edwards would be anything more than a footnote in this race.
          Edwards is the democratic key to the South. IMO he is the "unnamed democrat" coming out of hiding.
          "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Guynemer
            Well ain't this a kick in the head?
            Dean and Clark are in deep trouble. I never, ever, ever would have thought Edwards would be anything more than a footnote in this race.
            Dean still has a loyal following, and more cash than anyone else. But Clark's support is probably tepid in NH.
            The thing is, Dean must win NH to stay competative in the game- Clark need only come in second or close third and wait for the south.
            If you don't like reality, change it! me
            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by PLATO


              Edwards is the democratic key to the South. IMO he is the "unnamed democrat" coming out of hiding.
              What state in the south could he possibly bring to the dems. save his own? The south is Bush country, and the dems. are better of not wasting too many resources there. Only massive black and latino turnout, which is not likely, would give them any chance.
              If you don't like reality, change it! me
              "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
              "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
              "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by GePap


                What state in the south could he possibly bring to the dems. save his own? The south is Bush country, and the dems. are better of not wasting too many resources there. Only massive black and latino turnout, which is not likely, would give them any chance.
                The same was said with Clinton in '92. The South would consider a democrat if he was portrayed correctly. The South really does want to be democratic...the democrats just keep getting in the way.
                "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by PLATO


                  The same was said with Clinton in '92. The South would consider a democrat if he was portrayed correctly. The South really does want to be democratic...the democrats just keep getting in the way.
                  So if the democrats turn into republicans, heck, we will vote for them? This is not 1992 anymore.

                  None of the dems save Lieberman, who will not be the one, can compete on the culture issues- on the war, Kerry and Clark can show some ability, but if Max Cleland could be knocked off, Bush will certainly be able to do a number on them.

                  Bush will basically play the "God, Flag, and Patriotism" dance which seems to work best in the south.
                  If you don't like reality, change it! me
                  "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                  "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                  "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by GePap


                    So if the democrats turn into republicans, heck, we will vote for them? This is not 1992 anymore.

                    None of the dems save Lieberman, who will not be the one, can compete on the culture issues- on the war, Kerry and Clark can show some ability, but if Max Cleland could be knocked off, Bush will certainly be able to do a number on them.

                    Bush will basically play the "God, Flag, and Patriotism" dance which seems to work best in the south.
                    It does seem that the South supports God, The Flag, and Patriotism (and in that order I might add). Personally, I would fall into that category. Despite some recent highly publicised polls, I believe that a lot of democrats support the same thing. Perhaps their are differences in our definitions of supporting God or what the Flag stands for, or even what it means to be patriotic.

                    For example, I feel sure that you believe that it is the patriotic thing to do to stand up against the war in Iraq, while I believe that it is the patriotic thing to do to support it.

                    Southerners are not entrenched in the Republican bandwagon, but they do need a democrat that will come closer to expressing the same value structure.
                    "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by GePap

                      The thing is, no senator has won the white house in over 90 years.
                      JFK was a senator. He even got re-elected, in '58 IIRC.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        What state in the south could he possibly bring to the dems. save his own? The south is Bush country, and the dems. are better of not wasting too many resources there. Only massive black and latino turnout, which is not likely, would give them any chance.
                        You're not helping.

                        I'm disappointed when I see otherwise intelligent Northerners throwing away the South and acting like it's useless or past some kind of point of no return. It's not.
                        meet the new boss, same as the old boss

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                        • #72
                          wow, I was surprised... I'm not a fan of Kerry, but I like Edwards. The good news is, D1ck Gephardt got owned and is probably done. Dean had a piss poor showing. I'm disappointed, but if Dean has this kind of lackluster support, I will have no problem dumping Dean.

                          I still want to see how Clark does in NH and SC... but I'm leaning towards Edwards now. He was always a bit of a sleeper with me. This will be interesting.
                          To us, it is the BEAST.

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                          • #73
                            Well, thanks for pointing that out- I never remembered about Kennedy.

                            One trend Kennedy begun- the taller canddate has won every election of the TV era, though Bush and Gore seemed pretty even.

                            Southerners are not entrenched in the Republican bandwagon, but they do need a democrat that will come closer to expressing the same value structure.


                            Which is? If it is true that southerners have some "value structure" of thier own, why should any party gear it national election startegy to just one group that decides to remain separate from the rest of the country?

                            I'm disappointed when I see otherwise intelligent Northerners throwing away the South and acting like it's useless or past some kind of point of no return. It's not.


                            As long asit is supposedly a very particular part of the country with its own "only in the south" issues, then it might very well be a place of no return for a party that does not want to get too deeply into the culture war.

                            Look, some parts of the south, like Alabama and Mississippi are as likely to go for any dem as NY is about to go to any repuplican. The question is, which states in the south can dems compete? Only border states and Florida. As big as Atanta is, Georgia as one would still be solid red.
                            If you don't like reality, change it! me
                            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              So what does this mean? Does Iowa actually count this year, or will it be irrelevant like other elections?
                              KH FOR OWNER!
                              ASHER FOR CEO!!
                              GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                                So what does this mean? Does Iowa actually count this year, or will it be irrelevant like other elections?
                                relevant in the sense it knocked Gephardt out... also, Dean coming in third was huge... but, the last 3 presidents didn't win in Iowa (so I've heard).
                                To us, it is the BEAST.

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