Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

German atrocities in WWII, systematic or just like everyone else?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Parker, R.A.C., "Struggle for Survival: The History of the Second World War", Oxford University Press, 1990.

    In the Second World War, strategic bombing reached a climax with the American bombing of japan in 1945...

    The Army Air Force proceeded to renact, in a much shorter time span, the original experiences of RAF Bomber Command over Germany. Until 9 March 1945 their bomber striking forces concentrated on daylight, high altitude, precision attacks, mainly against aircraft factories. Bomber crews ran into bad weather, found high winds at bombing altitudes, and saw their targets less than half the time in december 1944 and during less than one fifth of their bombing runs in February 1945. Most bombing was radar-guided and highly inaccurate. At best, 17 per cent of bombs fell nearer than 3,000 feet from the aiming point. Moreover Japanese fighters, handled by what remained of their experienced airmen, inflicted heavy losses, which rose in January 1945 to 5.7 per cent... By the time the Mustang fighter squadrons were ready for action, the B-29s had begun to follow new tactics, of low-level raids at night with a high proportion of incendiary bombs. Like the RAF attacks on Germany these raids set fire to houses, partly to reduce the productivity of industrial workers, partly to destroy morale by terror. On 9 March 1945, 334 B-29s set off for Tokyo and dropped incendiaries on a densely-populated area of dwellings, mostly made of wood and bamboo. Stong winds set off a fire-storm visible from 150 miles away. Sixteen square miles were burnt out. One quarter of Tokyo's buildings - 267,000 - were destroyed, 1,000,000 people lost their homes and about 80,000 people died. As a mechanism for slaughter, the American air force had caught up with the RAF some months before the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

    Until then Americans had shown distaste for area bombing, as an unpleasant British practice. General Kuter, assistant chief of the US Air Staff, thought it 'contrary to our national ideals to wage war against civilians'... Among the American public, moral inhibitions against the bombing of Japanese civilians were weaker than in the case of Germans because of the hostility inspired by the surprise attack on Pearl Harbour followed by the notorious Japanese ill-treatment of American prisoners, and reinforced by the general acceptance of racialist sterotypes. Even so, the authorities claimed they were attacking 'military objectives'. General Arnold, the head of the US Army Air Force, told Stimson that although small-scale Japanese war production was dispersed among individual houses in Japanese residential areas, the USAAF tried to minimize civilian casualties. Ignorance and eager self-deception came together in varying proportions to quiet worried consciences.

    In the next four weeks after the Tokyo raid, five more cities lost 37 square miles of buildings. Then such raids ceased until late June, partly because stocks of incendiary bombs ran low, partly because attention shifted to the support of the invasion of Okinawa. Between late June and the end of the war on 14 August, fifty-five cities were attacked, with populations ranging from 30,000 to 325,000. On average about half of the built-up area was destryoed in each. On 27 July came an innovation: Le May, the commander of the B-29 offensive, arranged to have leaflets dropped on eleven cities giving warning that they were about to be attacked, and next night six of them were. He followed the same procedure twice more. By that time, American aircraft roamed safely over Japan, as the number of effectively trained Japanese pilots had dwindled during the Okinawa campaign. When weather permitted specific targets to be seen, precision bombing went on by day against economic objectives, while area bombing continued...
    He concludes with a mention of a total of 22,000,000 homeless, and then goes on to discuss the atomic raids.
    Last edited by notyoueither; January 17, 2004, 22:12.
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

    Comment


    • notyoueither and molly

      Molly's quote:

      ‘On February 15th, 200 more American bombers flew over the already burning city with the idea that even more chaos could be created if raids were made while fire-fighters were already trying to get the fires that were started 36 hours earlier under control.’
      If this portion is true, it definitely makes the USAF accessories to the crime. The only caveat I'll add, similiar to the argument I had with Ned over the A-bombings, is what did the minutes of the meetings planning those raids indicate?

      Unfortunately, and this is because I have not studied Dresden in detail, as it was a terror raid with little impact on the war, I cannot verify this either way with sources on hand. Could either of you, Molly or notyoueither, find me the footnotes for those claims? The reason I ask is that this dovetails with some reports I have read of Americans in bomber command having serious differences with Air Marshall Harris. If they complained, and then went on to follow orders, fully aware of the "terror" nature of the raid, they were "just following orders." (reference Nuremburg, obviously).

      notyoueither, I notice that Parker and I largely come agree when it comes to the facts, though we phrase it a bit differently.

      Ignorance and eager self-deception came together in varying proportions to quiet worried consciences.
      That's a statement of interpetation, and editorial at that. If you look at Ned's excellent citation, and the book he quoted when we were arguing over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that is what you need to win over those who still have an open mind. Parker makes states more opinions:

      As a mechanism for slaughter...

      Among the American public, moral inhibitions against the bombing of Japanese civilians were weaker than in the case of Germans...
      The is a problem with my preferred kind of history anymore - after three decade of reading them, I started back in Junior high - is that the kind I prefer are painfully dry. I just loaned a book of mine (South vs. South, from one of the academic presses) to our daughter's godmother, who had an ancestor doing garrison duty on the Mississippi during the Civil War. It is an excellent history, quoting correspondence, newspaper reports, etc. to show exactly how brilliant, and (opinion here) a rat-bastard Lincoln was (most great people are not very nice individuals). Even with her interest in the area, she only got through two chapters, and complained to me how dry it was.

      Dresden and the fire-bombing of Japanese cities has become such a polarized issue - sort of like the Waffen SS and the A-bombs - that it's hard to find a history out there that simply recounts the facts - meeting, morandums, results. Let the reader draw the conclusions, save polemics for the forums. I don't know if we are going to find a commonality here, except to agree that Dresden was a terror raid and a war crime, the fire-bombings of Japanese cities produced horrific results, and that we probably don't have the time, or inclination here, to research the actual documentation to show what was the INTENT of those involved. Without the intent (i.e. Molly's quote on torpedoing hopital ships, a clearly documented war crime UNLESS the US KNEW they were being abused, which frankly I doubt) you simply cannot know.
      The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
      And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
      Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
      Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.

      Comment


      • I agree to a point, shawnmmcc. I was a bit concerned about his polemics while I was entering all that in. However, the point stands. The USAAF used area bombing of population centres with incendiaries after it was known what could happen, and after it was safe for their bombers to return to other tactics. I wanted Ned to see that.

        Regarding Dresden, it actually was a military target, sort of. The Soviets were launching an offensive, and they requested the RAF and USAAF to disrupt German communications (roads and rails). Bomber Harris thought that incendiaries would be useful for the task, I suppose. Either that or he was pathological.
        (\__/)
        (='.'=)
        (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by notyoueither


          And some Americans have a hard time admitting that the US has done the same damn things.
          We did. I have not said otherwise. I am one of the few Americans who believe the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unjustified.

          But Britain deliberately targeted the German population in its bombing campaign for more than three years. It is not enough to simply blame this on one man, Bomber Harris. The British people have to acknowledge what they did and that what they did was wrong.
          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

          Comment


          • Originally posted by notyoueither
            Either that or he was pathological.
            Or a little of both?
            12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
            Stadtluft Macht Frei
            Killing it is the new killing it
            Ultima Ratio Regum

            Comment


            • We were complicit in these bombings too. For instance, hundreds of American bombers were involved in the destruction of Dresden.
              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
              -Bokonon

              Comment


              • I don't suppose that this is the time or place to point out that the Germans started the terror bombing is it? Names like Guernicia, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, London and Coventry come to my mind. I'm sure that there were many other examples less well known too. You can be certain that Prime Minister Churchill was put under a great deal of public pressure to respond in kind, though I'm also certain that he wouldn't have required any public pressure to sway his mind that the Germans needed some reprisals. That the Allied bombing campaign eventually became much more effective than the German bombing campaign is due not so much to a lack of effort on the part of the Axis, as to the superior industrial output of the Allies.

                If the Germans had decided to use chemical warfare do you believe that the Allies would not have replied in kind?
                "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by notyoueither
                  I agree to a point, shawnmmcc. I was a bit concerned about his polemics while I was entering all that in. However, the point stands. The USAAF used area bombing of population centres with incendiaries after it was known what could happen, and after it was safe for their bombers to return to other tactics. I wanted Ned to see that.

                  Regarding Dresden, it actually was a military target, sort of. The Soviets were launching an offensive, and they requested the RAF and USAAF to disrupt German communications (roads and rails). Bomber Harris thought that incendiaries would be useful for the task, I suppose. Either that or he was pathological.

                  NYE, I still see multiple stories on when the leaflets first began.

                  Also, I suspect the bombing halt had from March through June may have had to do with more than just a lack of napalm and may have been caused by higher ups who wanted to review the ethics of what LeMay was doing.

                  But the facts do indicate that LeMay and McNamarra did not appear to have the moral qualms we had in bombing Germany.

                  BTW, it appears on its surface that had we alone bombed Dresden that we would have focused on the rail yards, bridges, etc., and would not have caused the firestorm.
                  http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                  Comment


                  • I don't suppose that this is the time or place to point out that the Germans started the terror bombing is it?
                    "He started it" isn't an excuse for adults. And IIRC, the Brits responded to a relatively minor bombing of a church in Coventry (which IIRC wasn't intended) with a deliberate bombing of civilian targets in Berlin.
                    "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                    -Bokonon

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
                      I don't suppose that this is the time or place to point out that the Germans started the terror bombing is it? Names like Guernicia, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Amsterdam, London and Coventry come to my mind.
                      You´re correct, but it has already been mentioned here in this thread

                      There´s also no doubt Germany would have done more terror bombardment if we had a real strategic bomber force, which the Nazis never managed to create. At least their use of V weapons shows that they didn´t lack the will....
                      Blah

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ramo

                        "He started it" isn't an excuse for adults. And IIRC, the Brits responded to a relatively minor bombing of a church in Coventry (which IIRC wasn't intended) with a deliberate bombing of civilian targets in Berlin.
                        AFAIK the first German bombs on London weren´t intendet, but the attack on Conventry was absolutely, and it was not that small. They bombed also other British cities after Coventry.

                        IIRC a German bomber hit London accidently during the battle of britain, and the Brits answered with attack on Berlin the next day. Then Hitler made his (in)famous speech were he said "If they say that they will attack our cities on a larger scale, we will erase theirs!" (or so - early sept. 1940) and regular attacks on London started, the first with ca. 300 bombers and fighter escort. The attack on Coventry in november was planned, ca. 500 (? not sure here) planes took part and killed ca. 500 people. This may not sound much, but the centre of the city was hit so hard that "to conventrize" became a new expression in the German Luftwaffe. Bear in mind that earlier single attacks like those on Guernica, Rotterdam or Coventry aren´t a good comparison to the 1000 bomber raids of the Brits/US later, because the Nazis had only tactical medium bombers of very limited range and payload, not a single heavy stategic bomber. So the intent was clearly to destroy as much as possible.
                        Blah

                        Comment


                        • So, in truth, Dr. Strangelove, the Brits were the ones who first deliberately targeted German civilians in WWII.

                          Also, Roosevelt repeatedly called for each side to not target civilians. It is hard to imagine Roosevelt authorizing deliberate attacks on civilians. Even though we participated in the raids on Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden, our targets were infrastructure, not people.

                          This is why I find what happened in Japan to be puzzle as it is inconsistent with Roosevelt's policy. I note that there was a bombing halt after the first few raids. Then Roosevelt dies. Then the attacks resume.

                          This suggests to me that LeMay's initial firebombing attacks were not authorized at the highest levels.
                          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BeBro


                            AFAIK the first German bombs on London weren´t intendet, but the attack on Conventry was absolutely, and it was not that small. They bombed also other British cities after Coventry.
                            Then London is probably the exeption to the rule . Presumably since the Luftwaffe had still other militairy targets to focus on in preparation for the invasion.

                            Prior to London, Guernica, Warsawa and Rotterdam were no doubt diliberate targeted to terrorise the people and the governments into submission. Rotterdam was bombed with phosfor bombs, and burned for several days.
                            Middelburg in the Netherlands suffered the same fate as Rotterdam BTW.

                            Targeting civilians in cities was a regular miltairy tactic by Germany.
                            "post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
                            "I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ned
                              So, in truth, Dr. Strangelove, the Brits were the ones who first deliberately targeted German civilians in WWII.
                              Well, it would hardly have been appropriate for the Luftwaffe to have targeted German civilians now would it?

                              If you meant that the British instituted bombing of German cities before the Germans commenced bombing of Allied cities, then I'd like to know which German citiy was bombed before Warsaw, Danzig, Posnan or Cracow? These raids were carried out in September of 1939, and they were terror bombings as civilian areas were deliberately targetted. I don't believe that the RAF was in position to bomb Germany until the Polish campaign was well over. The Germans began bombing civilain populations as soon as the western campaign began also. They made no apology about their tactics. They intentionally bombed cities to the rear of the lines of fighting in order to spread confusion and hamper the enemy's ability to move troops towards the front and also to demoralize populations. This bombing of civilians was a part of their military doctrine, and they did it everywhere their armies went, Poland, Scandinavia, the Low Countries, France, the Balkans, Great Britain, Russia, and North Africa. Please do remember that Poland, France, Holland and Belgium were Allies of Great Britain, and therefore Great Britain was justified in treating attacks upon its allies as attacks upon itself. Therefore, when germany began bombing Poland it opened itself to reprisals in kind.
                              "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dr Strangelove

                                Please do remember that Poland, France, Holland and Belgium were Allies of Great Britain...
                                Holland persued a policy of strict neutrality, and it had hoped it could remain neutral, just as it had been in WWI.

                                Holland did call for help when it got invaded, and indeed there had been close ties between Holland and Britain, but I doubt they were allies as f.e. Poland and Britain were.

                                BEF did enter Holland after the call for help, and Holland surrendered after the bombing of Rotterdam exept for the province of Zeeland (SW, bordering Belgium and guarding the entrance to the port of Antwerpen), where the BEF was. Middelburg, the provincial capital was bombed subsequently by the Luftwaffe.
                                "post reported"Winston, on the barricades for freedom of speech
                                "I don't like laws all over the world. Doesn't mean I am going to do anything but post about it."Jon Miller

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X