German atrocities in WWII, systematic or just like everyone else?

[Dr Strangelove]

Your argument has a few flaws in it. Calling Tsarist Russia a market economy is a bit misleading. The Tsar ruled Russia as an autocrat and frequently intervened in Russia's economic deelopment, often to Russia's detriment, so it would be more accurate to label Russia's pre-ww1 economy an 18th century mercantilist economy. If the Tsar wanted a piece of your industry he got it. He often determined who could build what and where. As an example, he moved much of Russia's heavy industry to St. Petersburg simply because he wanted to keep a close eye on it. This decision placed Russian industry at a significant disadvantage, because most of the raw materials of industry had to be transported from the Urals. If you examine the placement of heavy industries of other major western powers during this era you will find that in most cases successful industries would have been located near major sources of coal, and also preferrably near sources of iron ore.

OTOH if you examine the development of US industry you find that in the early part of the 19th century the US rose from virtually nothing to one of the top four industrial nations by 1830. Of course, the world wasn't very industrialized during this era, so that's not saying much.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Serb
Not like them. The f*cking traitors who joined the nazis, did it to save their pitty lives, because nazis bring only destruction and death when they invaded. They betrayed their country to save their worthless butts, f*cking traitors.
Who told you that all those people you've mentioned are happy about destruction of USSR? Most of them live MUCH, MUCH worse than in times of USSR.
The real f*cking traitors are Yeltzin&Co who signed the treaty and destroyed the country, and bring misery and death to millions of its citizens. Those are real f*cking traitors.

Now I see why you just can't agree with mass murder of innocent people at the hands of USSR - it would mean you are supporting a bloodthirsty empire of evil.

Russia needs time to come to terms with its past. I just wonder what they teach in history classes in school? I hope they are not raising another generation of expansionist thugs.

[Sandman]

Stalin was an imbecile. His repeated interference and inability to command led the Russians to numerous defeats, until he finally butted out and let the generals do their job. Instead of allowing the Red Army to retreat in good order, he insisted upon a series of useless last stands, allowing millions of soldiers to be killed or captured.

A more competent leader could have beaten the Germans with an 'agricultural' Russia.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Saras


Now I see why you just can't agree with mass murder of innocent people at the hands of USSR - it would mean you are supporting a bloodthirsty empire of evil.

Russia needs time to come to terms with its past. I just wonder what they teach in history classes in school? I hope they are not raising another generation of expansionist thugs.

Don't worry. We can gut them like pigs.

[Hurricane]

So Serb, explain to me why Stalin had to kill millions of people and send millions to the GULAG camps in order to industrialise the country?

[Ned]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Are you making this up as you go?

There were warnings dropped only starting late in the bomber campaign against Japan (July 27, 1945). That was long after the first night time, incendiary bombing of Tokyo (March 9, 267,000 buildings destroyed, 80,000 dead) and many other Japanese cities. Note the raid on Tokyo was about 3 weeks after Dresden (Feb. 13).

So yes, for the last 2 weeks of the war, leaflets were dropped. Big freakin' deal!

This is not consistent with the facts as I know them.

Could you explain why we would start dropping leaflets on July 27? Potsdam?

No, I am sure if you look a little harder on the Web or in the Library, you will find actual copies of leaflets dropped earlier.

[Ned]

Here is one source that says that the leaflets began after the Tokyo raid.

This suggests that higher-ups than Le May were shocked by what he did and insisted that any further firebombings include leaflets.

http://web.nmsu.edu/~monines/08.ppt

[Ned]

As Shawn and Molly have pointed out, the B29 was a high altituded bomber by design. The problem was that at this height, bombs were so innacurate that "precision" bombing that we conducted in Germany was impossible. That is why LeMay switched tactics to low level nighttime bombing using napalm. The leaflets apparently began right after the Tokyo raid. But this raid occured only weeks after Dresden and the news of that raid reaching the US through Sweden. I would not be surprised if a good historian could find a document that called for leaflets to be dropped thereafter.

And, BTW, the Brits firebombed Dresden on the night of Feb. 13. The US had no part in that.

We precision-bombed railways, bridges, etc., during the daylight hours of the next day.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Damn straight. When the good citizens were running away from the flames, some bastard started dropping bombs on the transport infrastructure. That was plain sadistic.

[Mr. Harley]

Lazarus, it would have been sadistic, except at that point it was moot. The firestorm had already gone through the city turning it into a giant crematoria. The USAF bombing at most was coordinated as in that both groups hit targets in the same area so as to hopefully exhaust/overwhelm defenders. It was very different than Hamburg, which was a mix of area bombing at night and "precision" bombing of factories/infrastructure during the day. In that case it was a major German industrial center, and a legitimate target.

[Ned]

Lazarus, another Brit who likes to divert attention?

There is a difference between targeting infrastructure and targeting people. I see that most Brits have a hard time admitting that there is a difference.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned
As Shawn and Molly have pointed out, the B29 was a high altituded bomber by design. The problem was that at this height, bombs were so innacurate that "precision" bombing that we conducted in Germany was impossible. That is why LeMay switched tactics to low level nighttime bombing using napalm. The leaflets apparently began right after the Tokyo raid. But this raid occured only weeks after Dresden and the news of that raid reaching the US through Sweden. I would not be surprised if a good historian could find a document that called for leaflets to be dropped thereafter.

And, BTW, the Brits firebombed Dresden on the night of Feb. 13. The US had no part in that.

We precision-bombed railways, bridges, etc., during the daylight hours of the next day.

I would not be surprised if in your increasingly more ridiculous efforts to prove the U.S. goody two shoes in WWII, you could find any number of ridiculous 'facts' to support your absurdities.

The morning after the Dresden firestorm:

'In the morning as relief columns approached on the ground, a second wave of Flying Fortresses of the 1st Air Division of the U.S. Strategic Air Force arrived. Fighter escorts strafed anything that moved.'

In case you don't get it, that 'anything' refers to people, too.

‘As Messenger recounts, 13 February brought 796 Lancaster bombers and 9 Mosquitoes from the Royal Air Force . In 3 hours, they dropped 1,478 tons of explosive bombs and 1,182 tons of incendiaries . Likewise, the American Flying Fortresses and Liberators, as Beck recounts, dropped 1,800 explosive bombs and 136,800 fire sticks. American planes completed the raid when they returned and unleashed 3,700 more explosive bombs on Dresden .’

‘On February 15th, 200 more American bombers flew over the already burning city with the idea that even more chaos could be created if raids were made while fire-fighters were already trying to get the fires that were started 36 hours earlier under control.’

You think they could pick out non-civilian targets then, perhaps?

You keep insisting on this 'precision bombing'- it didn't exist in WWII- it was precisely because the Allies couldn't precision bomb, that they switched to incendiary devices. The 'precision bombing' was tried out by the Americans in the Pacific theatre of war- it's only notable success being an attack on the dry dock facilities in Singapore in 1944. Because it didn't work, they switched to other tactics.

U.S. incendiary raids on Japan were part of a pattern- and the leafleting wasn't a response to Dresden- so pack up those hypocritical Yankee morals in the old kit bag and sink it along with those Japanese hospital ships.

Dr. Johnson put it very well-

In Taxation No Tyranny, he asked, "How is it that we hear the loudest yelps for liberty among the drivers of negroes?”

Beck, Earl R. Under the Bombs: The German Home Front, 1942-1945. Lexington: UP of Kentucky, 1986.

Black,. John. “The Truth about the 1945 Bombing of Dresden.” Workers World. Feb. 1995.

Messenger, Charles “Dresden, raid on.” The Oxford Companion to World War II.

[Ned]

Molly, it is hard to think that my uncle Tom, who was a B17 bomber pilot during WWII, could be a mass murderer. It is simply hard to imagine US soldiers deliberately targeting women and children. I think they knew that some of their bombs would fall on civilians. But their targets were always defined and were infrastructure, not people.

In your rendition of our participation in Dresden, you failed to mention that we bombed during the day and that we had genuine targets.

The Brits bombed at night and generally had no targets other than the city itself.

Our tactics did change with the firebombing of Tokyo. But afther that raid, we dropped leaflets until Hiroshima. But after two such atomic bombs fell, Truman called a halt because he could not stomach deliberately attacking women and children, which of course acknowledges that he did deliberately attack women and children in the those two major attrocities. LeMay gets the credit for Tokyo. Perhaps he should have tried as war criminal. Instead, the Emperor gave him a medal.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ned
There is a difference between targeting infrastructure and targeting people. I see that most Brits have a hard time admitting that there is a difference.

And some Americans have a hard time admitting that the US has done the same damn things.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Do any of your posts ever mean anything?

I thought prejudism not simple mindness was your problem?