German atrocities in WWII, systematic or just like everyone else?

[gopher]

Originally posted by Serb

p.s. Katyn was nazi's work.

B.S.
The KGB archive in Lubyanka have revealed NKVD accounts of the massacre, from the process of identifying who to kill (read: non-socialist Polish Army Officers), the Polish Regiments involved, etc.

Sorry, but I am a stickler for history. then again, there is so much B.S in this thread that I just want to move on

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Serb

I'm sorry, Molly. This Patroklos, really pissed me off. Those words were for him mostly, not for you.

p.s. Katyn was nazi's work.

Apology accepted- I understand the temptation to get angry, given how little emphasis is usually given to Russia's role in defeating the Axis powers, and how everyone conveniently forgot about the Red Army's defeat of the supposedly invincible Japanese in Nomonhan and elsewhere, but anger is not the best tool in argument.

By the way, you're wrong on Katyn:

' 5th March 1940, Stalin signed an order authorizing the N.K.V.D. to shoot over 20 000 Allied prisoners of war, who had been captured in joint German-Soviet operations in Poland the previous September. They were being held in three camps, at Kozielsk, Oshtakovo and Starobielsk, They were nearly all Polish reserve officers, and were shot in the head and buried in mass graves, the operation finishing on 6th June.
When Polish General Sikorski enquired of Stalin where the missing forces might be, Stalin replied 'they might have fled. To Manchuria, for instance.'

Soviet prosecutors raised the Katyn massacres at Nuremberg, but soon dropped the case and failed to pursue the prosecution of the alleged 'Nazi' war crime.

In 1990-91, both Gorbachev and then Yeltsin admitted Soviet culpability.'

from 'Europe: a History', Norman Davies

extracted from documents including:

N.K.V.D. to Stalin, 5th March 1940, n. 794/5, Central Committee Archives of the C.P.S.U. , document released by President Yeltsin, publ. Gazeta wyborcza (Warsaw) n. 243 (1016) 15th October 1992.

'Polish Society under German Occupation', J. T. Gross,

Conversation with Stalin in the Kremlin, 14 November 1941, from 'Conversations with the Kremlin and Despatches from Russia', by S. Kot, publ. London 1963

and Vladimir Abarinov, 'The Murderers of Katyn', trans. from the Russian, publ. Hippocrene Press, New York 1993.

[Serb]

So, international investegation of 1944 (iirc) was wrong claiming it was a nazi work and Gorbi and Yeltzin were right?
I need some time to find the book "Katyn detective" to proove my point. When I'll find it, perhaps we will discuss it in separate thread? I'll PM to you, when I'll be ready. What do you think?

[notyoueither]

What sort of international investigation was possible, in the middle of the war?

[Serb]

Investigation held by representatives of allied nations, with participation of British and American experts, btw.

[notyoueither]

They had access to German records? Did Himmler send them by pidgeon?

[Mr. Harley]

Molly, you will note that I stated the resolve was wearing pretty thin (concerning not targeting civilian targets) when we started firebombing Japanese cities. Your statements back that up.

The reason for using incendiaries was, of course, that 'precision bombing' proved so singularly ineffective.

That's why I phrased it like I did. We were already getting some of the initial analysis of the effectiveness, and often the lack there of, of the precision bombing campaign against the Nazis. The daytime precision attacks were mostly ineffective, those those that were effective had very critical results (fuel primarily).

So the US decided to use the sledgehammer approach.

By early June, the industrial heartland of Japan, consisting of Kobe, Osaka, Tokyo-Yokohama, Nagoya and Kawasaki were a scene of devastation, with over 40% of their total urban area wreckage and ruins. 50 smaller cities and manufacturing centres went on to experience raids from LeMay’s 600 strong bomber force which was in a position to fly and bomb at will.

Exactly. Note. Industrial heartland. Maufacturing centres. However, that's why I categorize the commitment to precision bombing as growing weak, they were very aware of the havoc they were producing. While the leaflets were psychological warfare (they failed, as it usually does) there was also hope?/justification? that they might save some civilians. Remember, LeMay (thank you Ned) was opposed to the A-bombs, so their was a disagreement even among the military (Notyoueither, agreeing with your point you made on that).

Notyoueither, you make one assertion that is patently wrong.

Aside from the Japanese supposedly learning a lesson from German experience and then decentralising their means of production in a short 12 to 24 months tops...

Actually, under wartime pressures, the Japanese, Germans, and Soviets all produced wonders of relocation and/or dispersion in times well under 24 months, though their was production disruption. It was government policy, and has been documented. The Japanese had military observers in Nazi Germany, and were very aware of what they were going to be facing. The Japanese were helped by the fact they already had large numbers of a small "garage production" type and this portions of this decentralization continued up until the 1990's, where finally due to a variety of reasons that had started well before that the system pretty much fell apart.

Your other comments are right to the point, including the bombing of civilian targets and strategy. However, it was not the general policy of the US bomber commands to wipe out civilian targets. You could argue they needed an industrial excuse, or you could argue collateral damage. Unless we are willing to go over the actual records of the meetings (people who do that are professional historians, I'm only an amateur) we'll both be spinning our wheels.

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither
They had access to German records? Did Himmler send them by pidgeon?

They had access to mass graves.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Serb
So, international investegation of 1944 (iirc) was wrong claiming it was a nazi work and Gorbi and Yeltzin were right?
I need some time to find the book "Katyn detective" to proove my point. When I'll find it, perhaps we will discuss it in separate thread? I'll PM to you, when I'll be ready. What do you think?

Well, Serb, an ‘international’ investigation in 1943, held under Nazi auspices, supported German claims.

So an ‘international’ investigation held in 1944 under Soviet auspices supporting Soviet claims, hardly comes as a great shock.

I don’t think the Allies are going to turn around in 1944 and say to Stalin- ‘o.k. Joe, we gotcha, bang to rights!’

Restrictions on Allied servicemen keeping them from attending Katyn memorial services show how far the Allies were willing to ignore an unpleasant truth.

The Black Book of Polish Censorship (during Poland’s membership of the Warsaw Pact) classified Katyn as a non-event, rather like an Orwellian nonperson, which could not be referenced even with respect to Nazi war atrocities. Anyone caught with the’ Lista Katynska’, the roll call of the dead, was subject to criminal prosecution.

The unwillingness to acknowledge Katyn as an N.K.V.D. war crime on the part of the Allies is a testament to the victors being the ones who write history. After Yeltsin’s and Gorbachev’s admission of guilt and the release of the incriminating evidence and documents, the British War Crimes Act was designed to specifically exclude any Allied criminals from its remit- possibly because some of the alleged N.K.V.D. executioners were still alive.

So what’s more important, Serb- finding out who did it, or denying that the N.K.V.D. did it?

Shawnmmcc- the B-29 which only came into full use in 1944 was the first superbomber the U.S.A. had which was capable of hitting Japanese targets from as afar away as Szechuan in China.

The U.S. attacked mainland Japanese targets when it could have attacked oil/petroleum production in the East Indies. It did so for psychological as much as strategical reasons.

By March 1945, the economic life of Japan had ceased, yet the U.S. carried on bombing Japanese cities. Resolve for bombing civilian targets was clearly not wearing thin in the Pacific- many in the U.S. military felt that targeting Japan's cities was payback for Hong Kong, Manila, Shanghai and Singapore - and Pearl Harbour, of course.

The resolve for 'precision bombing' of military/industrial targets was what had worn thin, on its proving inadequate at hampering Japan's war effort. In 1943, military analysts in the U.S. concluded that mass air attacks on Japanese urban targets using incendiary bombs was the solution- note, no distinction between industrial and 'civilian' targets.

Tests on models in America (at Dugway Proving ground, in Utah) had shown that bombing Japan's cities in which industrial areas and flimsy wooden civilian housing were sited cheek by jowl, would prove effective only if incendiaries were used in order to consume all in a general conflagration.

How does one target an industrial heartland without killing civilians? It is after all civilians who work in manufacturing centres, in factories, and mills, and cement works, and docks and loading bays. How do you destroy sixteen square miles of Tokyo without killing civilians?

[Serb]

Originally posted by molly bloom
So what’s more important, Serb- finding out who did it, or denying that the N.K.V.D. did it?

The more important is who did it of course, but can you give me some time to find this book and make a bit of research about it? I want to find who did it by myself. If you can give me the text of this oder (N.K.V.D. to Stalin, 5th March 1940, n. 794/5,), it we'll be apriciated.

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Serb

The goal wasn't an ideological utopia. The goal was simple- SURVIAVAL. YOU sieged young Soviet epublic and forced Soviets to be cruel. Soviet Union was alone against the rest of the world. Without cruel Stalin's industrialization and collectivization we wouldn't SURVIVE as nation. Germany would crush USSR easily if those sucrifices weren't made.

You are totally wrong here. Stalin's purges of the officer corps made sure the Red Army was totally unprepared for the German attack, and his mass deportations had made sure millions of people in Soviet first saw the Germans as liberators. Only thanks to the even worse Nazi brutality and Soviet propaganda did Stalin manage to get the population united against the nazis.

Communism as a system was an utter disaster from beginning to end, and Stalin's era was one of the worst.

[Serb]

Stalin's purges of the officer corps made sure the Red Army was totally unprepared for the German attack

Oh really?
Those great strategists like Tukhachevsky were traitors or completely incompetent at best. Purges in Red Army was the main reason why Abver was so unsuccesful dealing with Soviets- most of the traitors were purged from the army. Or perhaps you're trying to say that Abver was successful? Then why it was so wrong about Soviet industrial and military capability? Why new Soviet tanks and other armaments were a real shock for Germans when they faced them in 1941? The answer is clear- their intellegence knew nothing about them. They knew nothing, because it was hard to find good agents, because most of the traitors were removed from their ranks. Sure many inocent suffered too (as my grand grandfather, I hope), but purges not weakened Red Army- they made it stronger. All of the modern arms, the arms that bring us victory- T-34, KV, Katyusha, Grabin's divisional gun, etc, were created just before the war, after the purges, when Stalin personaly intervened in arms manufacturing, because he didn't trust his generals anymore. All those great generals created sh!tloads of crap, like T-26, BT, I-15, etc that were destroyed by Germans within first months of war and cost us so many lives.
If nazi faced in 1941 the old agricaltural Russia, instead of strong, industrial Soviet Union, it would be a piece of cake for them to crush it, and to destroy Russia as nation. In 30's under Stalin, within years USSR acompished a goal, to complete which other nations required centuries. Stalin's industrialization was very cruel mean, many people suffered, but it also was huge leap for country, and without it we wouldn't survived.

had made sure millions of people in Soviet first saw the Germans as liberators.

Another popular modern myth. Millions fought against them and finally won. There were traitors who greet them warmly, but that were thousands, and they were f*cking traitors, no less, no more, just f*cking traitors.

[Mr. Harley]

Molly, by the time the fully fledged bomber campaign was in operation against Japan, our submarine warfare had already cut off the Indonesian oil supplies. The Japanese were largely subsisting off of oil reserves, and in fact as I've noted simply could have been starved/fuel denied into helplessness. Unfortunately, someone still has to take the ground, and the US fixation with destroying enemy forces (a primary facet of army doctrine since the civil war, I'm not saying it was smart, but that WAS the doctrine) meant like idiots we were probably going to invade anyway.

The difference between Dresden versus the US firebombing campaign against Japan, or Hamburg, is in your own post.

How does one target an industrial heartland without killing civilians? It is after all civilians who work in manufacturing centres, in factories, and mills, and cement works, and docks and loading bays. How do you destroy sixteen square miles of Tokyo without killing civilians?

That is the difference. Dresden had absolutely no military or industrial potential. It's only purpose was to kill civilians. It may seem a minor difference, but it is a critical one in judging the ethics involved in a war, probably the hardest area to apply that field to. Yes people wanted revenge. The purpose of the firebombing though was to destroy the industrial/military potential. We had already done it, the problem is that we weren't sure about it yet, and while an element of uncertainty existed, there was no choice given the stakes of the war.

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Serb
If nazi faced in 1941 the old agricaltural Russia, instead of strong, industrial Soviet Union, it would be a piece of cake for them to crush it, and to destroy Russia as nation. In 30's under Stalin, within years USSR acompished a goal, to complete which other nations required centuries. Stalin's industrialization was very cruel mean, many people suffered, but it also was huge leap for country, and without it we wouldn't survived.

It is true that Soviet wouldn't have survived without industrialisation, but that doesn't change the fact, that Stalinism was one of the worst ways to achieve that goal. Had Russia developed its economy under normal market economy rules, it would have been much more stronger and better prepared.

Another popular modern myth. Millions fought against them and finally won. There were traitors who greet them warmly, but that were thousands, and they were f*cking traitors, no less, no more, just f*cking traitors.

Just like today's Ukrainians, Belo-russians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Azerbadjans, Armenians, Kazachs etc, who preferred to live in their own sovereign countries, when they got the possibility. Are these all also f*cking traitors?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Hurricane


It is true that Soviet wouldn't have survived without industrialisation, but that doesn't change the fact, that Stalinism was one of the worst ways to achieve that goal. Had Russia developed its economy under normal market economy rules, it would have been much more stronger and better prepared.

Tzarist Russia had market economy, so what? Before WW1 it bought machine tools and even simple agricaltural tools from Germany. In WW1 it imported rifles and still didn't have enough to equip all troops. In WW2 USSR produced more small arms than all nations combined, not to mention best tanks of WW2 (T-34, KV, IS), best armored assualt attacker aircraft (IL-2) of WW2, best rocket artillery (Katyusha) of WW2, etc.
To create such industrial capcacity through market economy would take decades. Soviet Union didn't have so much time and it made a huge leap within years. You can compare industrial output of SU after industrialization with industrial output of Tzarist Russia or can compare industrial growtrh of USSR in 30's with industrial output of USA in 30's. Industrial output of USSR after years of industrialization wasn't doubled or tripled, it was multiplied several times. I don't have exact data right now, but I can assure you, such leap within such short time is simply impossible through market economy.

Just like today's Ukrainians, Belo-russians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Azerbadjans, Armenians, Kazachs etc, who preferred to live in their own sovereign countries, when they got the possibility. Are these all also f*cking traitors?

Not like them. The f*cking traitors who joined the nazis, did it to save their pitty lives, because nazis bring only destruction and death when they invaded. They betrayed their country to save their worthless butts, f*cking traitors.
Who told you that all those people you've mentioned are happy about destruction of USSR? Most of them live MUCH, MUCH worse than in times of USSR.
The real f*cking traitors are Yeltzin&Co who signed the treaty and destroyed the country, and bring misery and death to millions of its citizens. Those are real f*cking traitors.