Rio starts ID checks on US flyers

[Berzerker]

Methinks the point Ted is getting at...perhaps...is it's easy for y'all to point a finger at the USA while your country stays off the radar screen... Another dodge there, Sava, What country were you born and/or raised in... If it's Luxembourg you'll get a pass...

[Berzerker]

Originally posted by Sava
Berz... you are using the old "THESE GUYS WERE MORE EVIL SO WHAT WE DID IS OKAY"... it's wrong...

I wonder... if I go to traffic court, can I say "BUT JEFFREY DAHMER KILLED AND ATE PEOPLE, SO I AM INNOCENT."

Where did I say that? First you declared there was a "very small difference" between the USA and Nazi Germany, and now it's a debate over the USA and the USSR. I merely pointed out how many people were slaughtered by the commies and how many were liberated by the USA. Seems quite obvious...

and by no means did I say "Nazi Germay = USA". In fact, the two are quite different. I was simply pointing out that they are similar in some aspects, and that we should strive to not be like them.

You're backtracking, you said there was a "very small difference" between the USA and the Nazis.

This is quite an extraordinary threadjack... sorry I shall not participate in it any more. I've said all I'm going to say. Feel free to ramble some more tho Berz... it's entertaining.

You jacked the thread with all that nonsense about what the Brazilian judge was really saying about the USA and not what he actually did say. He decried the security measure and you announce how he was complaining about the deportation of 83,000 Muslims, etc... At least you have the sense to run from this thread after your performance, don't trip on your tail...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Spiffor -

Saying it's stupid and proving it are two different things, I see you took the easy way. Has Kuwait slaughtered millions of people? Hmm...not quite as stupid now? Well, you've just said something quite silly. For your "analysis" to be valid, Kuwait must have done some really awful things, and I mean awful...

USA != Nazi Germany
Kuwait != France...therefore
France = USA?
Kuwait = Nazi Germany?

That's what "as stupid" implies...

No.
"as stupid" implies you used the same flawed logic than Tripledoc (or was it Oncle Boris?) when he said the difference between the US deporting 80,000 Muslims and nazi Germany was only a difference of scale. The quote may be in today's other godwinized thread, you should check it out

I don't care if the difference between the horrors of nazi Germany and the horrors of the US is much smaller than the difference between Kuwait's and France's (or whatever other social-democratic country) ones. Basically, your stupidity is qualitatively the same as Tripledoc's / Uncle Boris, but you may argue it's not "quantitatively" the same.

There is a fundamental difference between a social-democratic country and Kuwait, and that's the "democratic" part. Social-democratic countries had their welfare systems set up at the request of the population, and some of them had them destroyed (like the UK) at the request of their population as well.
To compare social-democratic countries to dictatorships is blind ideological bull.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Where did I say that? First you declared there was a "very small difference" between the USA and Nazi Germany, and now it's a debate over the USA and the USSR. I merely pointed out how many people were slaughtered by the commies and how many were liberated by the USA. Seems quite obvious...

I never even said anything about the USSR, so I don't know wtf u are talking about.

You're backtracking, you said there was a "very small difference" between the USA and the Nazis.

I'm CLARIFYING because you obviously misunderstood what I said

You jacked the thread with all that nonsense about what the Brazilian judge was really saying about the USA and not what he actually did say. He decried the security measure and you announce how he was complaining about the deportation of 83,000 Muslims, etc... At least you have the sense to run from this thread after your performance, don't trip on your tail...

yes I did jack the thread, sort of... the Brazilian judge, while not specifying his positions, obviously was dismayed at the US's treatment of people in reference to security procedures... and I SUGGESTED that perhaps he might know about the deportations...

I wasn't running, I was shooting a dying horse... if you aren't ever going to understand or get my points, why should I continue to waste my time?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by OliverFA
If I remember correctly, we are talking about a country who stayed in Germany and Japan after defeating their governments in WW2. They didn't have any obligation to stay. They could just have said "ok, they were the ones who provoked the problem, they have to get out of it themselves". But instead of that they helped bringing democratic regimes to Japan and Germany and boosting their economy.

I am not so sure the US did it for the good of the people. They did it to contain the USSR.

Originally posted by OliverFA
Japan is by no doubts among the best economies in the world and Germany is not doing bad either despite the problems they are having lately.

Japan is having a lot of economic problems now.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Berzerker
1) Stalin
2) Hitler
3) Mao
3) Japan
4) WWI - European colonialists
6) Pol Pot
7) N Vietnamese invasion of S Vietnam
8) N Korean invasion of S Korea
9) Armenian genocide
10) European colonialism
10) China's invasion of Tibet

Hm, how is Stalin a war criminal? How is Mao a war criminal? Why do you call North Vietnam's military operations against a bloody puppet state propped up by the US criminal acts? Why is US colonialism not on the list?

These are just starters...

[Berzerker]

Sava -

I never even said anything about the USSR, so I don't know wtf u are talking about.

I didn't say you started a debate about the USSR, only that the debate has moved (I am debating at least 2 people) from your attempt to indict the USA along with the Nazis to the Cold War and communism. But here you go:

yeah I guess you are right... we're the only nation to ever possess the power to nuke the world...

To which I pointed out that the USSR has and had that power. Of course, you ignored that as well... But you did offer this...

I suppose the defense of Britain helped keep a Stalinist regime in power, right?

I'm CLARIFYING because you obviously misunderstood what I said

Can you quote yourself? I've been quoting you all along. You said there was a "very small difference" between the USA and Nazi Germany. Don't blame me for your blunder. Btw, what is your clarification? Are you now saying there is a big difference between the USA and Nazi Germany?

yes I did jack the thread, sort of... the Brazilian judge, while not specifying his positions, obviously was dismayed at the US's treatment of people in reference to security procedures... and I SUGGESTED that perhaps he might know about the deportations...

Ah, you "suggested" what he really meant and ignored what he really said. That "clarifies" it a bit.

I wasn't running, I was shooting a dying horse... if you aren't ever going to understand or get my points, why should I continue to waste my time?

What was your point? Oh yeah, there's a "very small difference" between the USA and Nazi Germany. Oh, wait a minute...a "clarification" is coming in over the wire... What's that? The USA is worse that the Roman Empire now?

[Zylka]

"How is Stalin a war criminal?"

That's sig material

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Hm, how is Stalin a war criminal? How is Mao a war criminal?

You're kidding right?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Hm, how is Stalin a war criminal?

Do they not teach history in China?

[Spiffor]

Stalin has kept war prisoners in terrible conditions and for an outrageous time after peace had been signed. German civilians suffered from brutalities as they were being conquered. And needless to say, Stalin's absurd decisions as megalomaniac paranoid murderer lead to the useless death of millions sviet soldiers.

As for Mao being a war criminal, I indeed fail to see in which war he was directly involved, except WW2 against the Japanese. I don't think Mao standed out as being particularly evil at that time.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Stalin has kept war prisoners in terrible conditions and for an outrageous time after peace had been signed.

Not complying with the Geneva Convention is bad, but that doesn't automatically make him a war criminal.

Originally posted by Spiffor
German civilians suffered from brutalities as they were being conquered.

I am afraid that would almost always happen when the oppressed turn the table on the oppressors. The thing is whether the brutalities were spontaneous acts by random soldiers or a systemetic thing conducted by the military machine a la the Nanjing Massacre.

Originally posted by Spiffor
And needless to say, Stalin's absurd decisions as megalomaniac paranoid murderer lead to the useless death of millions sviet soldiers.

Do you mean the purges? Yeah, those are bad, but only indirectly related to later deaths.

Originally posted by Spiffor
As for Mao being a war criminal, I indeed fail to see in which war he was directly involved, except WW2 against the Japanese. I don't think Mao standed out as being particularly evil at that time.

Mao had never intended to be evil, but sometimes very nasty effects occurred as a consequences of his actions, such as the Cultural Revolution.

[Sava]

I think Mao did some pretty nasty things to Buddhists and stuff... sorry UR



sigh berz, you won't ever get it, I'm not going to waste any more of my time

[Berzerker]

UR -

Hm, how is Stalin a war criminal? How is Mao a war criminal? Why do you call North Vietnam's military operations against a bloody puppet state propped up by the US criminal acts? Why is US colonialism not on the list?

These are just starters...

How's this for an end? If you need me to inform you about the crimes of Stalin and Mao, type their names into google and hit enter (maybe add the words mass starvation and murder). As for N Vietnam, US involvement in S Vietnam cannot justify an invasion by the north. Will you argue the N Korean invasion of the south was also justified because the US was there as well? That was the catalyst for that war... And US colonialism was effectively over by the 20th century which puts it outside the scope of the matter at hand.

Spiffor -

No. "as stupid" implies you used the same flawed logic than Tripledoc (or was it Oncle Boris?) when he said the difference between the US deporting 80,000 Muslims and nazi Germany was only a difference of scale.

That was Sava, and that is not what we were debating. He said there was a "very small difference" between the USA and Nazi Germany and I responded by asking why he thinks the slaughter of millions constitutes a "very small difference".

I don't care if the difference between the horrors of nazi Germany and the horrors of the US is much smaller than the difference between Kuwait's and France's (or whatever other social-democratic country) ones.

But those differences matter if you're going to argue that a comparison between Kuwait and France is as stupid as a comparison between the USA and Nazi Germany. Sava (or was it O Boris) declared that the liberation of Kuwait was invalid because the US re-installed a dictator and I pointed out that if "liberation" depended solely on who regained power, then re-installing socialists in France would not qualify as a liberation either. Naturally he ignored my question as to whether or not the Kuwaiti people would have been better off under Saddam, and if not, then they were indeed liberated. Yes, dictatorships are not preferable to freedom, but socialism ain't freedom and the Emirs are not brutal thugs so I don't see much of a difference between the two countries wrt what matters.

Basically, your stupidity is qualitatively the same as Tripledoc's / Uncle Boris, but you may argue it's not "quantitatively" the same.

You didn't answer my question: what have the Kuwaiti dictators done to be so undeserving of restoration while the French leaders deserved that "favor"? For you to say my comparison is "as stupid" as comparing the USA with the Nazis requires that the Kuwaitis are ~equally evil when compared to the French. All you're doing is repeating your assertion that my statement is stupid and throwing in a few nice sounding words, "qualitative, quantitative". Just prove Kuwait is to France as the Nazis were to the USA, that's what your assertion requires.

There is a fundamental difference between a social-democratic country and Kuwait, and that's the "democratic" part. Social-democratic countries had their welfare systems set up at the request of the population, and some of them had them destroyed (like the UK) at the request of their population as well.

I don't care what label dictators use to hide behind, "Emirs", "socialists", they're all dictators. The fact one group of dictators got elected and another inherited their position is meaningless to me.

To compare social-democratic countries to dictatorships is blind ideological bull.

I'm neither a social democrat or a monarchist, so it has nothing to do with my ideology. But I can still look at the results from both Kuwait and France and compare the two. I'm waiting for you to identify the evils of Kuwait's monarchs. Hell, if anything the comparison favors Kuwait. It was the French who played lap dog to Hitler and it was French colonialism in E Asia that led to Vietnam...

[notyoueither]

Spiffor is going to say that any liberal democracy is preferable to any potentate, and many people would agree.