Death to France!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Actually, I would argue that by forbidding these symbols, you are denying rights to religious people available to the non-religious. In short, your laws already treat religious people differently. Why then should the religious people come into power in France, that they should tolerate the beliefs of the non-religious?

It seems to me that you don't mind because it isn't your beliefs that are being restricted. One of the beautiful things about religious freedom is that it protects the rights of those who choose not to believe, just as much as they do those who believe. Neither group gets favouritism.

As for the Moslems being restrictive, do you really want France to be known as the Western Saudi Arabia?

The very fact that a nation proscribes certian beliefs indicates an insecurity. A strong nation allows people to dissent, because they are not afraid of the ideas expressed by the dissenters. French people are obviously very afraid of religion.

Answer to each paragraph:

1 - Wrong, it is the contrary!

2 - You should revise your history lessons... you will see the practice is very far away from the theory.

3 - Better to hear that than being deaf! Try again...

4 - Utterly wrong and specious!



Northern America, this includes the USA and the Canada, seems to be so locked up in the politically correct that it can no more tells the difference between freedom and abuse. It seems like it is almost forbidden to disagree or to have an opinion that differs from the major trend... which in this case means yours.

Northern America's way of thinking is certainly not the best way of thinking, as is not Europe's or France's way. But as far as I am concerned I am not trying to convince you of the contrary. On the same level, we the French are not thinking like you do, but we are not trying to convince you that our way is superior to yours.

I will wait a little but I think I will sooner or later unregister from this thread as I am a bit tired of the anti-french rant.

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

You are actually telling us that a european woman who wish to work in an Islamist country must dress in a particular way but that the Muslim girls should have the right to wear the veil where it is currently forbidden by the law in France.

I guess we should hold Islamist countries to the same standards as we do France... but we don't, right? We don't expect Saudi Arabia to give women the same rights that France gives them.
We are using the "when in Rome" attitude, which is that western women should expect to have to wear the veil when they work/travel to/live in an area where it is expected of them. If they decide not to they should know that there might be consequences.
The thing with France is that we (western societies) expect more of ourselves i think. Just as we bash the US for their Iraq war, we do the same for France in this regard. It has nothing to do with obeying the law: it has everything to do with the fact that there is a law. Whether or not you can justify the fact that there is such a law in a western democracy is the heart of the matter here.

[DinoDoc]

Why are you people even arguing about this? It isn't like anyone from Europe will see a problem with restricting the rights of minorities to make the majority feel better about themselves.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Richelieu

... it has everything to do with the fact that there is a law. Whether or not you can justify the fact that there is such a law in a western democracy is the heart of the matter here.

I have already tried to explain it time and time again.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why are you people even arguing about this? It isn't like anyone from Europe will see a problem with restricting the rights of minorities to make the majority feel better about themselves.

Rather simplistic...

[DinoDoc]

Not really. It goes to the heart of the laic explanaiton you have been advancing in this thread IMO.

[Tamerlin]

Certainly not, this is only the way you have interpreted what I have said... and that is an entirely different thing.

[DinoDoc]

Whatever. It isn't like we'll convince each other of our position because we have no common ground on the issue.

[Tamerlin]

That is true...

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


You are actually telling us that a european woman who wish to work in an Islamist country must dress in a particular way but that the Muslim girls should have the right to wear the veil where it is currently forbidden by the law in France.

If than Female Bussienwoman want than 100,000,000 dollar ayear for 5 year contact you will dress to not offence the person at the other end of the table. Most Female Bussienwoman dress very converserly anyway, they donot dress to be sexly when they want to do bussien.
75% of the small bussienes and medium size bussienes are own by woman in Saudi Arabia.

Plus the sunlight in Saudi Arabia can harm you unpotect skin even the man wear loose robe when out in the sun. Heat stoke can kill you in the Saudi desert where temp can reach 135 to 145 degree F in the shade so add
40 to 50 more degree to get the temp in the sun. Than euporean woman can get than bad case of sunburn which can endanger her life. Man in Saudi Arabia wear scaf around they head which they can use to cover they mouth and noise to protect then from dust storm they get when near the desert.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff


If than Female Bussienwoman want than 100,000,000 dollar ayear for 5 year contact you will dress to not offence the person at the other end of the table. Most Female Bussienwoman dress very converserly anyway, they donot dress to be sexly when they want to do bussien.
75% of the small bussienes and medium size bussienes are own by woman in Saudi Arabia.

Plus the sunlight in Saudi Arabia can harm you unpotect skin even the man wear loose robe when out in the sun. Heat stoke can kill you in the Saudi desert where temp can reach 135 to 145 degree F in the shade so add
40 to 50 more degree to get the temp in the sun. Than euporean woman can get than bad case of sunburn which can endanger her life. Man in Saudi Arabia wear scaf around they head which they can use to cover they mouth and noise to protect then from dust storm they get when near the desert.

I know what you are talking about but it is not a reply to what I have written.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


Answer to each paragraph:

1 - Wrong, it is the contrary!

2 - You should revise your history lessons... you will see the practice is very far away from the theory.

3 - Better to hear that than being deaf! Try again...

4 - Utterly wrong and specious!



Northern America, this includes the USA and the Canada, seems to be so locked up in the politically correct that it can no more tells the difference between freedom and abuse. It seems like it is almost forbidden to disagree or to have an opinion that differs from the major trend... which in this case means yours.

Northern America's way of thinking is certainly not the best way of thinking, as is not Europe's or France's way. But as far as I am concerned I am not trying to convince you of the contrary. On the same level, we the French are not thinking like you do, but we are not trying to convince you that our way is superior to yours.

I will wait a little but I think I will sooner or later unregister from this thread as I am a bit tired of the anti-french rant.

Some political correcting sterm from the fact that some cities, countries ban the police department from useing the N word and other words while on duty to avoid have
riots which can cause many billion of dollar in damage, than loss of life, even the most rednecked poticalisn doesnot want than major riot. The hight court in American upheld this ban of the use of certain words by the police
while on duty. I than very political incorrect but I even avoid useing the N word round black people as it is hightly insulting to them.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sorry Tamerlin.

I did not intend to be anti-French. I think France has some great traditions and some not so great traditions. You have absolutely phenomenal cathedrals in Chartes, that continue to be a testimony to the faith of the French.

You are right that freedom of religion has not always been implemented properly, but this is true of every law, including the French constitution. No law is perfect, or even if we had a perfect law, people would not be able to implement the law perfectly.

My concern is that you cannot see the shoe being on the other foot. Suppose the religious people who feel oppressed come into power again. Would they not be justified in restoring all the religious symbolism erased by the atheists?

3 - Better to hear that than being deaf! Try again...

So why must restoring religous expression imply deafness?

[CharlesBHoff]

These boy in French who are terrorism the Muslim girls in French are nothing more than street criminal, they arenot Muslim as they donot know the meaning of the true Quran. First the Quran teach that woman are the equall of man and must be treated with respect they arenot to be force to have sex with than man or beaten by than man expect when the woman is endanger herself by trying to kill herself( use the mininal amount of force needed) Islam is than religion of peace. The Quote from the Quran which some Christian Fundie are useing is misquoteing the Quran. In context it was saying when the pagan of Mecca where attacking muslim man to kill then the Muslim man was free by God from the early ruleing use in Mecca of turning the other chech and free then to use force to potect thenself and they woman folk. In many other verses it state it than enemy offer to make peace on reasonfull term you must expect the term agree to.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff
If than Female Bussienwoman want than 100,000,000 dollar ayear for 5 year contact you will dress to not offence the person at the other end of the table. Most Female Bussienwoman dress very converserly anyway, they donot dress to be sexly when they want to do bussien.
75% of the small bussienes and medium size bussienes are own by woman in Saudi Arabia.

Plus the sunlight in Saudi Arabia can harm you unpotect skin even the man wear loose robe when out in the sun. Heat stoke can kill you in the Saudi desert where temp can reach 135 to 145 degree F in the shade so add
40 to 50 more degree to get the temp in the sun. Than euporean woman can get than bad case of sunburn which can endanger her life. Man in Saudi Arabia wear scaf around they head which they can use to cover they mouth and noise to protect then from dust storm they get when near the desert.

A $100,000,000 salary for a female businesswoman in an Islamic country?!