Ten Commandments 2003: How did we do?

[Arrian]

@ this thread.

The bible thumpers must be happy this year, though. Religion tends to do well when people are scared.

I do not believe in "God" and from what I've read of the Bible (Old Testament in particular), if I did, I'd think he was a colossal jerk.

The Bible is a several thousand year old collection of stories/fables/myths created by human beings. If it makes you feel better about your life or your eventual death, fine by me. Just don't try to push it on me.

-Arrian

[Vesayen]

All of you have lied, infact you lied on that poll, it is IMPOSSIBLE to not covet, I would soil myelf if there are FIVE people here who observe Shabbat and soil myself even more if 7 of you did not take God's name in vain at some time during the last year..... no one has not violated those four lol.

[Space05us]

Enigma_Nova, for all of us being unworthy ( ) of your great intellect you spend an awful lot of time around here spamming.

[gamenaught]

Is there a commandment to that extent? If not, then are we obliged to do this? If so, then do we have to take it literally?

I hear the sweet sound of fundie brains popping.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
@ this thread.

The bible thumpers must be happy this year, though. Religion tends to do well when people are scared.

I do not believe in "God" and from what I've read of the Bible (Old Testament in particular), if I did, I'd think he was a colossal jerk.

thats cause you dont have the benefit of midrash. You read the bible protestant style, without commentary. And even calling it the "old" testament reveals a christian bias, not uncommon among atheists.

[Arrian]

Commentary by whom? Another guy purporting to tell me what I'm supposed to believe?

And yes, Christian bias no doubt, as my background is Christian (not exactly believers until you get back to my great-great-grandfather, though). Heck, my family was a bunch of Puritans at one point. :shudder:

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Vesayen
All of you have lied, infact you lied on that poll, it is IMPOSSIBLE to not covet, I would soil myelf if there are FIVE people here who observe Shabbat

heck id be surprised if there are even 5 here who have the foggiest what observing Shabbat means.

As Franz Rozenzweig said, I do not YET observe Shabbat. My goal is to observe it al pi Klein, but ive a long way to go, and i admit to little progress in the last year.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Commentary by whom? Another guy purporting to tell me what I'm supposed to believe?

Mirash doesnt give one answer. It usually gives a number of possibilities. It does attempt to explain difficult and apparently contradictory passages. It even finds difficulties were a straightforward reading of the text wouldnt. And yes, its a human activity, Which is NOT a mark against it, IMHO. The myths and fables you mention are the product of a people' struggle with the meaning of life and the universe. The first people to struggle towards ethical monotheism. That historical encounter, that reaching out to God, is what we've got. Not TRUTH on a silver platter? Too bad.

[lord of the mark]

btw how do you get from shall not bear false witness against your neighbor to shall not lie? This isnt a commandment about logical tricks, its one about justice in court. A very important one I might add. As anyone whos been to court knows.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by gamenaught
If someone goes to cooking school for years and years, it isn’t unreasonable to think they would cook better than average. So are you saying that church/Sunday school/Bible school has nothing to teach or that Christians aren’t capable of learning anything?

It's a tough question.
I reckon some of this stuff is human nature.
With willpower you can overcome impulses (I'll bet we all do this frequently), but herein lies a problem:
Why would a nonbeliever use his will to follow THESE orders?
Why would a believer bother to gain will, as having self-direction is contradictory to the word of God?

To the contrary, most children assume that if their parents, their Sunday school teacher, their minister, and their peers all agree on something, they are telling the truth.

I figure that's because people presume other people have knowledge (keeps each new human being from rewriting the alphabet).
However, I was decidedly immune to this for some reason.
I kept my opinions in the face of being told what to believe.
Enigma meditates on this matter to find an explaination
Being aware of my thoughts before birth would be the major reason, that I could believe something myself which contradicted what I was told.
After that, I opted to believe myself "In case the others are wrong".
I guess the central part is that most newborns don't have any basic logic or thought, and so are shaped by what they sense.

Why would the child assume that all of these people are lying to her?

I went to a christian college, and here was my breif synopsis of why I didn't follow the Bible:
"These people seem so depressed, and also so blind. Their advice makes no logical sense to me. While this book may hold wisdom, these people don't seem wise.
I'll have to find out for myself whether this book works."

Reading a bible and watching cartoons, I very quickly associated God with a megalomaniacal ruler of a realm. I quickly decided that was not the path.
Again, people, I don't know what freak accident caused me to be logic-capable at birth as I know this is very abnormal.

So people with high self esteem reject Christ and only those of low self esteem accept Christ?

And a good christian parent knows that they should break their child's spirit and deny them of their free will so that they are in a better position to accept God.

Where's my rifle? Argh... the experience... I will ensure that nobody feels the pain of those ICAS warriors ever again!
Enigma wonders what he would be like if his exceptional talent for logic were accepted rather than assaulted...
2000 years of a Christian system has turned people into... nonquestioning believers. They believe in absolute truth and laws, and the superiority of the parent.
(I believe in the superiority of the child... Experience corrupts, after all, and it is up to the children to evolve past the mistakes of the past... not to be caught up in them)

They have a legal system, a family system, and a social system based on the idea of absolutes, and superiority of those with power. I opt for the superiority of those with open-mindedness, and a system which better allows people the ability to create new ideas.
Humans have evolved the ability to create, judge, and accept; To lead, question and follow.
I reckon that all types of people, with all sets of values and all agendi, should be accepted.
(No it's not impossible because Conformism is not an absolute it is a modern virtue)
Likewise, in my dystopia, children who disagreed with their parents would have a reasoned argument or some persuasive story, not immediate discipline.

This, people, is my idea of heaven. Not a place of eternal submission, or subordination, but a place where the human spirit is uncontained by the bounds of society.
To set us free of the shackles of our own prejudice, and the prejudice of others.
And as for those that -do- have prejudice?
Why, of course, we all do! The best we can do is install a value for tolerance and acceptance. (Anti-prejudice laws and propaganda have the inverse effect, you'd need pro-acceptance laws and propaganda)

Of course, everyone has their own notions of heaven and hell, their own ideals, what they think is 'good' and what they think is 'bad'.
Mine are clearly shaped by a natural tendency to think and create landed straight in a world of conformism and ignorance.
That's not to suggest anyone's idea of heaven is flawed.
We should all be allowed to have our own idea of heaven, and if God is good, he will let us all have our own ideas.

To accomodate paradise as each person views and needs paradise. Not to chain people down to anything at all.
That, people, is my idea of paradise.
Of course, I am prejudiced by my individualistic upbringings and views will differ.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Space05us
Enigma_Nova, for all of us being unworthy ( ) of your great intellect you spend an awful lot of time around here spamming.

And I often roleplay different personas so there goes the lying commandment!
When I'm p!ssed at someone I act arrogant towards them. Partially because I don't think it's worth my time to worry about them, and partially to p!ss em off.

Do I really believe I'm better than them?
Lol, yeah, probably. Only thing is, in insulting them, I tend to insult all the neutrals as well!

[Arrian]

LotM:

To those who recognize this:

The myths and fables you mention are the product of a people' struggle with the meaning of life and the universe.

I say bravo.

But, first of all, the Bible presents itself somewhat differently.

Second, human beings will seek meaning, sure. That doesn't mean I agree with the meaning they "discover." I happen to see the bible as an interesting collection of stories. The moral conclusions I may draw from those stories, however, probably differ quite a bit from those we deem themselves "believers." Like I said, God is a jerk. Look at the commandments. Look at Genesis. He's a jealous, vengeful, spiteful, violent jerk. To me, he seems awfully small for an all-powerful, all-knowing deity who supposedly loves his creations (so much that he wipes almost all of them out when they don't do what he wants).

-Arrian

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by gamenaught




I hear the sweet sound of fundie brains popping.

Sweeeet.
Straight to #4 on the sig table.