An explanation of why ME peace isn't possible

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn


It isn't one, to be Jewish is to ascribe to the Jewish faith. You don't believe in Judaeism, you're not a Jew.

Uh, no. Not exactly.

[GePap]

Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
It isn't one, to be Jewish is to ascribe to the Jewish faith. You don't believe in Judaeism, you're not a Jew.

Come to NYC and test that notion out.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

wereupon no matter what religion you are, in most states the requirements for citizenship are the same.

That is the difference.

Exactly.

Come to NYC and test that notion out.

I know, its the same as Boston. I understand that some non-religious people identify themselves as "culturally Jewish", just as I suppose I could consider myself "culturally catholic", even though I don't ascribe to catholocism. But I mean it in the religious sense. The problem is we don't have the words to describe people who are culturally relevant to a religious group but don't ascribe to their beliefs. For now we just inaccurately call them Jews.

[Edan]

Re: Re: Re: An explanation of why ME peace isn't possible

Originally posted by GePap


Yes, and its not good. Cause if you were to convert to Islam and try to get Israeli citizenship it would not be half as easy..

Actually, it's not that simple. If someone with Jewish ethnicity were to convert to Islam, for example, it would be just as easy.

And Israel isn't the only country to have such a law. IIRC, both Russia and Germany have simmilar laws.

[Sava]

It is a cultural war... a war against civilizations... I doubt peace is possible. Especially since mainstream and "extremist" Islam is so close-minded. Only the more moderate "westernized" Islam can co-exist with others... and it doesn't look like that brand of Islam is too popular in countries like Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and the less moderate Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Afghanistan... and now that the secular government in Iraq has been overthrown. I doubt militant and conservative Islam will stand by and not try to expand it's strangle hold into Iraq.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ned
Until Europe and the United Nations begin to denounce all displays, preachings and teachings of anti-Semitism, peace is not possible.

How is not accepting aid from Israel anti-Semitism, Ned?

[Tripledoc]

Whether is in fact true that Israel has the most experienced rescue crews is difficult to say. However as experinced as the Israeli rescue teams are, similarly experienced are operators of Israeli army bulldozers in knocking down buildings burying civilians under the rubble, if not outright driving over civilians, amongst them the american peace activist Rachel Corey. Also Israeli sharpshooters have shown themselves very capable of assasinating foreign peace activists.

I am sure earlier attempts at acting in a humanitarian fashion, would have rewarded itself multifold. Instead the Israeli army has committed itself to a pattern of collective punishment and outright economically motivated dislocation of the civilian Palestinian population. Perhaps the Israeli offer of humanitarian assistance to Iran would not have the odious tinge of political opportunism to it, should there have been a track record of humane treatment of Muslims in the past.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
How is not accepting aid from Israel anti-Semitism, Ned?

I think that he is talking about comments like this: it is better for a Muslim to asphyxiate under the earth than be rescued by a Jew from Israel.

Perhaps the Israeli offer of humanitarian assistance to Iran would not have the odious tinge of political opportunism to it

Beggars can't be choosers.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sava
It is a cultural war... a war against civilizations... I doubt peace is possible. Especially since mainstream and "extremist" Islam is so close-minded. Only the more moderate "westernized" Islam can co-exist with others... and it doesn't look like that brand of Islam is too popular in countries like Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and the less moderate Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Afghanistan... and now that the secular government in Iraq has been overthrown. I doubt militant and conservative Islam will stand by and not try to expand it's strangle hold into Iraq.

Sava, I tend to agree with this.

It's good that we at least see eye-to-eye on at least one subject.

[Ned]

Listen, when the UN GA passes resolutions declaring Israel to be a racist state, when the Security Council routinely passes resolutions (that are vetoed by the US) that condemn only Israel for the violence, one knows that there is no hope for peace. The vicious anti-Semites of the Muslim world have no critics in the non Muslim world or in the UN. America seems alone in seriously denoucing the constant hate mongering against Israel and Jews coming out of the world of Islam. Until this changes, the preachers of hate can only feel that they winning the propaganda war and are only encouraged to continue their vicious anti-Semitism. Peace is not possible in such a climate of hate.

Those who truly desire peace must condemn hate -- not encourage it.

[lord of the mark]

Re: Re: Re: An explanation of why ME peace isn't possible

Originally posted by GePap


Yes, and its not good. Cause if you were to convert to Islam and try to get Israeli citizenship it would not be half as easy..

wereupon no matter what religion you are, in most states the requirements for citizenship are the same.

That is the difference.

The requirements for someone BORN in Israel are the same without regard to race or religion. The distinction is only with regard to immigration. The state allows privileges for Jews to immigrate based on its function as a haven and its claim as an ancient homeland. Note Germany and some other states have law of return privileges as well. Making the law of return based solely on descent rather than religion would lead to vast complications given how the Jewish people defined itself for hundreds of years - your pals who are jews by ethnicity only would hardly deny that converts to J are jews as well, would they? Many of them are probably in part descendants of converts too.

However there is ongoing ferment in Israel now, in response to 1. Problems with Soviet immigrants, some of whom are NOT jewish according to Jewish law, but are clearly assimilating into Jewish Israeli society 2. a sense that if and when peace occurs, there will be little need to attract large numbers "technical racial" jews to israel for security 3. a desire to conform to democratic norms

problem 1 leads to arguments for a form of secular conversion - why shouldnt someone who is Hebrew speaking, committed to historic Jewish culture and nationhood, and affiming their support for the Israeli state and its Hebrew, Jewish character, be accepted as a Jew for all State related purpose? This would solve a number of problems and YET would likely not involve the "judaization" of any more than a handfull of muslims. Problem 2 leads to a reexamination of the law of return - why should Jews who come from states where Jews are not suffering actual persecution, be granted citizenship without some demonstrated knowledge of Hebrew and Israeli and Jewish culture - again the latter would allow all relgious and most commited secular jews, but would tend to block migrants coming for pure economic opportunism.

In combination these two actions would go far to answering 3, and would probably do so with minimal actual demographic impact. They would not eliminate the technical non-compliance - A technical Jew would still recieve automatic asylum from any state where Jews are prosecuted, and such technical status would continue to includ converts to J, without respect to linguitstic or cultural criteria - but anyone calling Israel racist on these grounds would be revealed as someone of fundamental ill will.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Does Ireland have a constitution that state that it is soley an Irish state? Or does Ireland's constitution grant all citizens equal rights in all aspects under the law? If the later is true, then it is "Irish" in name only, and not in how it treats its citizens. The basic question is: can a person not Irish in any way (lets say a Hindu) immigrate, become a citizen with all the same rights as any other Irishman, and within a few years have his sons be as Irish as some kid whose decendents go back 1000 years.

Sorry, but this line of defense is demonstrably false.

Israel basic law does NOT say it is "soley a Jewish state" And all CITIZENS have equal rights under the law. The law of return, like all immigration law, applies only to NON-citizens.

[GePap]

The requirements for someone BORN in Israel are the same without regard to race or religion. The distinction is only with regard to immigration.

given what happened to no-Jews in Israel at it;s beginning, and given that most israeli popualtion growth happend directly becuase of immigration-this matters immensely, probably more than issues baout being born there. After all , strict limits on who can beocme an Israeli coming from the outside limits who will be born in the future in the land.

I find Germany's citizenship laws to be terrible- the sooner they get rid of their emphasis on blood the better.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Israel basic law does NOT say it is "soley a Jewish state" And all CITIZENS have equal rights under the law. The law of return, like all immigration law, applies only to NON-citizens.

Repeat of what i said above.

Why hasn't Israel yet ratified a constitution, as the original partition plan and so forth asked for? How many other state founded since 1900 lack a ratified constitution?

Also, are all israeli citizens the same? Can Arabs have access to the Jewish foundations that hold so much of Israeli land in trusts? Do they trully have the same access to land, and to advancement, lest say, in the IDF, which has come to play such a central role in Israeli life?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Agathon
When the US butts out, peace is only a matter of weeks.

Interesting claim. If the US leaves Israel to dry, there will be peace. Hmmm...

*looks up Agathon's definition of 'peace'* :


Peace (from roman Pax):
commonly: a state of harmony between people or groups.
in the middle east: the quick destruction of Israel by sorrounding arab countries.

- Signed: Agathon


Aha!! I knew something smelt fishy!