Return of the King

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Originally posted by MrBaggins
BM was not a FAR better movie. FotR was... and thats the way it is.

Actually that isn't the way it is, because FOTR didn't win the Academy Award. For all the *****ing and moaning, Annie Hall WAS better than A New Hope (Star Wars IV). It's just that ANH has lived on longer because of the 'coolness' factor (I admit I like Star Wars better, but I consider Annie Hall the better film).

Ahh... but you said.. "Best" and not "Best Picture Winner at the Academy Awards". The Academy Award is far from the be-all-and-end-all decider of the "Best". They've even used race as a factor in voting, by all accounts.

The Academy is far too clique-y and has odd patterns in terms of "due"ness and not re-rewarding people who've one before.

Take one look at all the reviews in hindsight after a couple of years, and the average rating of ABM and LotR:FotR...

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/ABeautifulMind-1111029/

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/TheL...eRing-1108476/

Check out the IMDb ratings...
Take a peek at the comparitive Box Office of the films...


I could list any myriad number of critical or populist statistics lending proof to the argument that FotR was better than ABM.

Making the the Academy Awards the final arbiter on the relative quality of one film or another is a monumentally short sided approach.

LotR:FotR stands by itself or as part of a trilogy as a significant achievement, and a real part of film history, and it will be fondly remembered a decade or two from now. ABM's relevance a decade from now will be in the form of a trivial pursuit question.

[Brundlefly]

One thing that kinda was creepy about the movie was that the interaction between the hobbits sometimes gave off a homosexual vibe. All of that hugging... Pippin finds Merry on the battlefield and says something like, "Will you never leave me again"

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ahh... but you said.. "Best" and not "Best Picture Winner at the Academy Awards".

In the end, 'Best Picture' is used to determine what was the 'Best'.

Making the the Academy Awards the final arbiter on the relative quality of one film or another is a monumentally short sided approach.

It is the most respected award show giving awards to what it considers the best movie is probably the best measure.

Rottentomatoes is just takes how many critics liked it and how many hated it. It's a sillier measure, because it takes a bunch of critics (some not even that good at all) and just adds up their reviews. It's good to see for which movie to watch this weekend, but definetly not to decide the best movie. By that measure you'd have to agree that 'Finding Nemo' is better than any of the LOTR movies (since it ranked 99%).

IMDb ratings are personal preferences of the movie going public. You know, the types that think Bad Boys 2 is a better movie than Lost in Translation.

As for box office.. are you saying Titanic is the best film ever then?

I'll take the most respected movie award show, featuring the best critics. There may be outrage at the time of the award, but they usually get it right. Just because a movie is a phenomenon doesn't mean it is the better movie.

LotR:FotR stands by itself or as part of a trilogy as a significant achievement, and a real part of film history, and it will be fondly remembered a decade or two from now. ABM's relevance a decade from now will be in the form of a trivial pursuit question.

Mere speculation. I think a movie dealing with John Nash's demons will be remembered in future years as a very good movie.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Just like, 20+ years on, we're still watching Star Wars -- but the 1977 Oscar went to Woody Allen for Annie Hall.

Which was the best decision. Annie Hall was the better picture. Star Wars is the social phenomenon (but never deserved best picture).

Just so we're clear: I agree with you. My point -- directed at "fanboys," as you so pithily put it -- is that "lasting popular phemonenon" is not the same thing as "best picture" or "best directed picture." Personally, I think the Ring movies will outlast many of this year's films. But I still think Master and Commander was a better film, and both Master and Commander and Mystic River were better-directed. (I should note that I haven't yet seen Lost in Translation.)

But I do think that Jackson deserves a special award, as I noted above.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Just so we're clear: I agree with you. My point -- directed at "fanboys," as you so pithily put it -- is that "lasting popular phemonenon" is not the same thing as "best picture" or "best directed picture." Personally, I think the Ring movies will outlast many of this year's films. But I still think Master and Commander was a better film, and both Master and Commander and Mystic River were better-directed. (I should note that I haven't yet seen Lost in Translation.)

But I do think that Jackson deserves a special award, as I noted above.

I agree. Jackson has put together a wonderful trilogy. I think Lucas also deserves an award for Star Wars, for what the original film did for Hollywood (though I guess some don't like what it has done).

As for 'fanboys', I like being pithily .

I admit that I probably will personally enjoy LOTR more, but I know that it isn't the best picture or best directed picture. Just like with Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Ahh... but you said.. "Best" and not "Best Picture Winner at the Academy Awards".

In the end, 'Best Picture' is used to determine what was the 'Best'.

Making the the Academy Awards the final arbiter on the relative quality of one film or another is a monumentally short sided approach.

It is the most respected award show giving awards to what it considers the best movie is probably the best measure.

The Academy Awards has a history of making spectacularly poor choices... lets consider 10 years...

93 Schindlers List... Fine choice.

94 Forest Gump. Bad idea... either Pulp Fiction or Shawshank Redemption shoulda won.

95 Braveheart. Bad idea again... Dead Man Walking should have taken this by a mile.

96 English Patient. Toss up between English Patient and Fargo. OK

97 Titanic. Ugh? come on academy. L.A. Confidential

98 Shakespear in Love. Oh... I see Harvey's been breathing down industry necks again, and caused them to avoid seeing the superior Saving Private Ryan or The Thin Red Line

99 American Beauty... decent choice, although an argument could be made for The Insider.

00 Gladiator... the year of "Russel Crowe is due". Both Crouching Tiger and especially Traffic were far superior choices.

01 Beautiful Mind. LotR should have taken this... better film according to critics and audiences. Memento was just as worthy, and both far more worthy than ABM.

02 Chicago. Another bad year for voting. The Pianist was easily the better film.

Rottentomatoes is just takes how many critics liked it and how many hated it. It's a sillier measure, because it takes a bunch of critics (some not even that good at all) and just adds up their reviews. It's good to see for which movie to watch this weekend, but definetly not to decide the best movie. By that measure you'd have to agree that 'Finding Nemo' is better than any of the LOTR movies (since it ranked 99%).

No it doesn't. You haven't even visited the links, apparently. The Cream of the Crop includes ALL the top critics. If they submit a review, then its included... and they pretty much all did for both ABM and FotR.

They not only have a Fresh or Rotten rating. They also include an averaged percentile score for all the scores in the top professional reviews. FotR scored significantly higher than ABM. The ABM is, in hindsight, pretty average, in the view of professional critics.

Metacritic or any of the other critical review sites will show exactly the same viewpoint.

Also, Finding Nemo's average rating is lower than the LotR films. Finding Nemo, however, is a wonderfully executed animated feature. Its ALSO better than ABM

IMDb ratings are personal preferences of the movie going public. You know, the types that think Bad Boys 2 is a better movie than Lost in Translation.

Well.. no... they have a remarkably robust rating system. The best films tend towards the top of the ratings and the worst films towards the bottom.

Indeed, Bad Boys 2, unsurprisingly, didn't make the top 250 films, yet Lost In Translation did.

So whats your point again?

As for box office.. are you saying Titanic is the best film ever then?

No. The most universally popular (as in connecting with both US and EU audiences) ? Yes.

Box office certainly isn't the be-all-and-end-all indicator of film quality, either. Exceptionally good or bad performance do matter. Good performance at the B.O. means that the audience has not only gone once, but the film has generated repeat viewings, which is a significant indicator of some entertainment factor of a film.

I'll take the most respected movie award show, featuring the best critics. There may be outrage at the time of the award, but they usually get it right. Just because a movie is a phenomenon doesn't mean it is the better movie.

Well.. actually they don't have any critics voting whatsoever. Just cliquey AMPAS members. They also, as I've mentioned don't usually get it right. They get it right every few or several years.

LotR:FotR stands by itself or as part of a trilogy as a significant achievement, and a real part of film history, and it will be fondly remembered a decade or two from now. ABM's relevance a decade from now will be in the form of a trivial pursuit question.

Mere speculation. I think a movie dealing with John Nash's demons will be remembered in future years as a very good movie.

Based on what, exactly?

[Arrian]

98 Shakespear in Love. Oh... I see Harvey's been breathing down industry necks again, and caused them to avoid seeing the superior Saving Private Ryan or The Thin Red Line

Just to show again how subjective this stuff is, I think Shakes in Love was a fine choice, though I liked Saving Private Ryan as well. The Thin Red Line blew monkey balls.

-Arrian

[Ned]

If only men voted for the Oscars, RotK would have a much better chance. The movies that win usually have a strong romantic component.

[Ned]

Actually, the real bond between Frodo and Sam may be enough to sway some femine votes.

[MrBaggins]

Shakespeare in Love is certainly a good film, and a top 10 film of that year.

Pretty much every critics had either Saving Private Ryan or Thin Red Line as their number 1 pick of the year.

Saving Private Ryan went on not only to be the #1 hit at the box office, despite being rated R and going up against Armageddon, but also had a spectacular DVD release also. Shakespeare In Love just about made its money back, after distribution costs. Its DVD had pretty unremarkable sales.

Saving Private Ryan is the benchmark of the 90's for war pictures. Shakespeare in Love is a benchmark for Affleck movies. 'Nuff said.

Thin Red Line had the best individual performances of the year in celluloid. An amazing ensemble. Not everyone connected with the film "as a whole" though... and I definitely preferred Saving Private Ryan over it. TRL was the better acted film than SiL though.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Arrian


Just to show again how subjective this stuff is, I think Shakes in Love was a fine choice, though I liked Saving Private Ryan as well. The Thin Red Line blew monkey balls.

-Arrian

Arrian beat me to this.... but I'll second the fact that Shakespeare in Love was a very good film. I can watch it over and over and always take away something new. The WWII movies were just entertaining (well, Ryan was, not Thin Red Line).

[Imran Siddiqui]

94 Forest Gump. Bad idea... either Pulp Fiction or Shawshank Redemption shoulda won.

I'd take Forest Gump over both. Pulp Fiction was ok, but nothing special like some people go crazy over. Shawshank Redemption... I still don't understand... it made me .

95 Braveheart. Bad idea again... Dead Man Walking should have taken this by a mile.

Bah! Braveheart was so superior!

97 Titanic. Ugh? come on academy. L.A. Confidential

I liked LA Confidential better, but I can see why they'd pick Titanic.

98 Shakespear in Love. Oh... I see Harvey's been breathing down industry necks again, and caused them to avoid seeing the superior Saving Private Ryan or The Thin Red Line

Everyone that I've talked about who has seen both SPR and SIL says that they are either equal or SIL is better. People who go off the wall for SPR are those who haven't seen SIL, or went in thinking it would suck and made it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

00 Gladiator... the year of "Russel Crowe is due". Both Crouching Tiger and especially Traffic were far superior choices.

Crouching Tiger? Better than Gladiator? You have to be joking. Traffic may have been, but I'd still take Gladiator. It was a great epic throwback movie.

01 Beautiful Mind. LotR should have taken this... better film according to critics and audiences. Memento was just as worthy, and both far more worthy than ABM.

Totally disagree. ABM was a great movie.

02 Chicago. Another bad year for voting. The Pianist was easily the better film.

Bah! Chicago is one of the best films of the last 20 years. It was better than The Pianist and will be more influential as well.

The Cream of the Crop includes ALL the top critics.

You mean all the top popular newspaper critics who they feel are the top? It seems they just take the big circulation newspapers and make them 'Cream of the Crop'.

The ABM is, in hindsight, pretty average, in the view of professional critics.

8.1 is average? That's a very above average score. Interestingly that is higher than Seabiscuit, who many here have nominated for Best Picture this year.

Well.. no... they have a remarkably robust rating system. The best films tend towards the top of the ratings and the worst films towards the bottom.

Indeed, Bad Boys 2, unsurprisingly, didn't make the top 250 films, yet Lost In Translation did.

So whats your point again?

It was an example, to also demonstrate your box office measure was wrong. However, have you looked at the rankings in the 250? Star Wars is 11th with 8.7 rating, while Traffic, which you felt deserved to win an Academy Award is 213 with a rating of 7.8. Network is 196 with a rating of 7.8. It may also be the only ranking where Muholland Drive (165) is higher than A Streetcar Named Desire (173). This is the ranking you want me to back?

Well.. actually they don't have any critics voting whatsoever. Just cliquey AMPAS members.

Some of whom happen to be critics. They balance it between them and other people who have been in the movie business.

And it ain't just the Oscars. ABM won the ASCAP Award for top Box Office Film, The Chicago Film Critics Award for Best Picture, The Dallas-Fort Worth Critics Award for Best Picture, and the Golden Globes for Best Picture.

It wasn't just the old fogeys at the Academy... it was a PLETHORA of critics around the country at many award shows.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Pretty much every critics had either Saving Private Ryan or Thin Red Line as their number 1 pick of the year.

Funny thing is that looking back over it, many people, even those hear, believe SIL was a BETTER overall film that SPR. The shock in the beginning was overcome by those who actually took time to watch both films and realize that SIL was wonderfully done, probably better than SPR, which had a fantastic first half-hour and then was a fairly average war movie after that.

[Ned]

I agreed with 1990, 91, 92, 93, 94, 96, 97, 99, and 2000.

I would have picked Babe over Braveheart, Saving Private Ryan over Shakespeare in Love, LoTR: Fellowship of the Ring over Beautiful Mind and the Pianist or Gangs of New York last year over the putrid Chicago. Mostly, therefor, I think the Academy gets it right. Last year? Well, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would even like Chicago.

Also, Mulholland Drive was a very good film and it didn't even get nominated.

About '77. Starwars is ranked by nearly everyone as one of the all time great films, easily above that run-of-the mill Woody Allen piece that won. That was the worst travesty in movie history, IMHO.

Most everyone also agrees that Empire Strikes Back was a better film than Star Wars. It did not win either.

And, speaking of travesties, 2001, A Space Odessey also did not win. Incredible!

1990 (63rd)
BEST PICTURE
Awakenings -- Walter F. Parkes and Lawrence Lasker, Producers
*
Dances With Wolves -- Jim Wilson and Kevin Costner, Producers
Ghost -- Lisa Weinstein, Producer
The Godfather, Part III -- Francis Ford Coppola, Producer
Good Fellas -- Irwin Winkler, Producer

1991 (64th)
BEST PICTURE
Beauty and the Beast -- Don Hahn, Producer
Bugsy -- Mark Johnson, Barry Levinson and Warren Beatty, Producers
JFK -- A. Kitman Ho and Oliver Stone, Producers
The Prince of Tides -- Barbra Streisand and Andrew Karsch, Producers
*
The Silence of the Lambs -- Edward Saxon, Kenneth Utt and Ron Bozman, Producers

1992 (65th)
BEST PICTURE
The Crying Game -- Stephen Woolley, Producer
A Few Good Men -- David Brown, Rob Reiner and Andrew Scheinman, Producers
Howards End -- Ismail Merchant, Producer
Scent of a Woman -- Martin Brest, Producer
*
Unforgiven -- Clint Eastwood, Producer

1993 (66th)
BEST PICTURE
The Fugitive -- Arnold Kopelson, Producer
In the Name of the Father -- Jim Sheridan, Producer
The Piano -- Jan Chapman, Producer
The Remains of the Day -- Mike Nichols, John Calley and Ismail Merchant, Producers
*
Schindler's List -- Steven Spielberg, Gerald R. Molen and Branko Lustig, Producers

1994 (67th)
BEST PICTURE
*
Forrest Gump -- Wendy Finerman, Steve Tisch and Steve Starkey, Producers
Four Weddings and a Funeral -- Duncan Kenworthy, Producer
Pulp Fiction -- Lawrence Bender, Producer
Quiz Show -- Robert Redford, Michael Jacobs, Julian Krainin and Michael Nozik, Producers
The Shawshank Redemption -- Niki Marvin, Producer

1995 (68th)
BEST PICTURE
Apollo 13 -- Brian Grazer, Producer
Babe -- George Miller, Doug Mitchell and Bill Miller, Producers
*
Braveheart -- Mel Gibson, Alan Ladd, Jr. and Bruce Davey, Producers
The Postman (Il Postino) -- Mario Cecchi Gori, Vittorio Cecchi Gori and Gaetano Daniele, Producers
Sense and Sensibility -- Lindsay Doran, Producer

1996 (69th)
BEST PICTURE
*
The English Patient -- Saul Zaentz, Producer
Fargo -- Ethan Coen, Producer
Jerry Maguire -- James L. Brooks, Laurence Mark, Richard Sakai and Cameron Crowe, Producers
Secrets & Lies -- Simon Channing-Williams, Producer
Shine -- Jane Scott, Producer

1997 (70th)
BEST PICTURE
As Good As It Gets -- James L. Brooks, Bridget Johnson and Kristi Zea, Producers
The Full Monty -- Uberto Pasolini, Producer
Good Will Hunting -- Lawrence Bender, Producer
L.A. Confidential -- Arnon Milchan, Curtis Hanson and Michael Nathanson, Producers
*
Titanic -- James Cameron and Jon Landau, Producers

1998 (71st)
BEST PICTURE
Elizabeth -- Alison Owen, Eric Fellner and Tim Bevan, Producers
Life Is Beautiful -- Elda Ferri and Gianluigi Braschi, Producers
Saving Private Ryan -- Steven Spielberg, Ian Bryce, Mark Gordon and Gary Levinsohn, Producers
*
Shakespeare in Love -- David Parfitt, Donna Gigliotti, Harvey Weinstein, Edward Zwick and Marc Norman, Producers
The Thin Red Line -- Robert Michael Geisler, John Roberdeau and Grant Hill, Producers

1999 (72nd)
BEST PICTURE
*
American Beauty -- Bruce Cohen and Dan Jinks, Producers
The Cider House Rules -- Richard N. Gladstein, Producer
The Green Mile -- David Valdes and Frank Darabont, Producers
The Insider -- Michael Mann and Pieter Jan Brugge, Producers
The Sixth Sense -- Frank Marshall, Kathleen Kennedy and Barry Mendel, Producers

2000 (73rd)
BEST PICTURE
Chocolat -- David Brown, Kit Golden and Leslie Holleran, Producers
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon -- Bill Kong, Hsu Li Kong and Ang Lee, Producers
Erin Brockovich -- Danny DeVito, Michael Shamberg and Stacey Sher, Producers
*
Gladiator -- Douglas Wick, David Franzoni and Branko Lustig, Producers
Traffic -- Edward Zwick, Marshall Herskovitz and Laura Bickford, Producers

2001 (74th)
BEST PICTURE
*
A Beautiful Mind -- Brian Grazer and Ron Howard, Producers
Gosford Park -- Robert Altman, Bob Balaban and David Levy, Producers
In the Bedroom -- Graham Leader, Ross Katz and Todd Field, Producers
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring -- Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Barrie M. Osborne, Producers
Moulin Rouge -- Martin Brown, Baz Luhrmann and Fred Baron, Producers

2002 (75th)
BEST PICTURE
*
Chicago -- Martin Richards, Producer
Gangs of New York -- Alberto Grimaldi and Harvey Weinstein, Producers
The Hours -- Scott Rudin and Robert Fox, Producers
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers -- Barrie M. Osborne, Fran Walsh and Peter Jackson, Producers
The Pianist -- Roman Polanski, Robert Benmussa and Alain Sarde, Producers
© Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would even like Chicago.

Because you have no movie taste?

Chicago is a fabulous film... how could it NOT win?!

About '77. Starwars is ranked by nearly everyone as one of the all time great films, easily above that run-of-the mill Woody Allen piece that won. That was the worst travesty in movie history, IMHO.

Have you even seen 'Annie Hall'? It was a great movie. Much better moviemaking than Star Wars, even though Star Wars is more fun to watch. Listen to the dialog and watch the acting in Star Wars... it's horrible! But it's a fun movie and we like the Force stuff.