discipline.

[Whaleboy]

I only hope you dont resort to the same barbarism with your own children.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Conceded, however it would be better defined as an act of incompetant parenting. A negative that does not preclude the existence of other positives, but negative nonetheless.

Again... your point that spanking is defined as an act of incompentant parenting is just pure crap.

Like my brother, I also used spankings (NOT BEATINGS OR ABUSE) as a useful tool when needed in raising my two daughters... Both are also well adjusted straight A students who are very well mannered and behaved. Granted, spankings were only needed on VERY FEW occasions, but it always remained as an option. Any form of punishment could be considered a Negative... and in my opinion, spanking is no more negative than groundings or time outs. My wife and I use a combination of both postitive and negative methods in dealing with out children.

So you are always welcome to your opinion... but to generalize that any parent that resorts to spanking (NOT BEATINGS OR ABUSE) is incompetant is just plain wrong.

[Japher]

I only hope you dont resort to the same barbarism with your own children.

What?! The only reason to have kids is to make them into your slaves and to beat them when they disobey!

I have no problem with the spankings I received, besides I am white so there is nothing I could of done about it (just kidding )...

I agree with Rah physical punishment is no more harsh than mental punishments. These days, however, it seems you can't punish at all without it getting too close to abuse, and that's BS... If I had not received the punishment I did I would be much worse for it. Yet, if I were a child to day I'd probably be put on Ritalin, checked into special ed, and living in a foster home instead of being accelerated through school to feed my curiosity, enrolling in numerous after school/work activities, and having a happy childhood that I can actually remember...

Note: As a rough kid, I beat myself up more than my parents did; falling out of trees of bikes, shooting myself in the foot with a BB gun, the likes...

[rah]

Yeah, WB, I do take it a bit personal when someone says I'm an incompetent parent. Parenting is not an exact science despite what "EXPERTS" claim in books attempting to make money.

And I'll agree that spankings were probably not the determining factor in my daughter's current successes (teenagers can flip at any time )
It was just one arrow in the parenting quiver that was used. And it is just my personal opinion that it can be an effective arrow.

But I'll take it one step further.
When we were growing up in grammer school, we were subjected to corporal punishment in the Catholic Grammer school that we attended. Our counterparts in the public schools were not.
When we were merged in the public high school,
A higher percentage of the Catholic students made the honor roll than the public kids.
A lower percentage got juvie records with the local police.
Our Catholic school reported the numbers to encourage the flock that it was worth the extra money. Granted, there was some bias involved but the numbers were quite significantly different. And a lot of the best Catholic students went to Catholic High schools and where not even included.

Now there are many other factors that influence this type of thing, but I'm inclined to believe that since the biggest difference between the schools was the way discipline was handled, it a high probabiliyt that it was a factor.

I had many opportunities to visit my daughter's grammers school, and I have to admit that the Kids weren't as docile and attentive in class as we were in the Catholic schools. Some of that was due to discipline. Things have changed over time, but not that much.

[Whaleboy]

So you are always welcome to your opinion... but to generalize that any parent that resorts to spanking (NOT BEATINGS OR ABUSE) is incompetant is just plain wrong.

After my last post, that is a strawman.

Again... your point that spanking is defined as an act of incompentant parenting is just pure crap.

Why? An easy, oft emotional method used instead of a more difficult, yet more productive and arguably, effective method. Cutting corners seems to be a pretty central feature of incompetance to me. Spanking is an element of incompetant parenting. Whether you are incometent or not is dependent on whether you do other good stuff too. Spanking is always incompetant in other words, not necessarily the parent that does it. I apologise for misunderstanding.

Japher: Read Lord of the Flies.

Yeah, WB, I do take it a bit personal when someone says I'm an incompetent parent.

As a liberal, Whaleboy cares not for hurt feelings!

Indeed parenting is not an exact science, but there are boundaries. I find your "arrows in quiver" argument disturbingly similar to those who justified beating their wife in times past.

Its like war or indeed any problem that would be solved with violence, there are always alternatives, and I dare say on the personal level, those alternatives are far easier to apply, given strong willpower.

Your example is very interesting, and without further information about your schooling I cannot comment, except to say that my own parents who went into harsh schooling failed, due to their rebelling against the harsh disciplinary system. Coupled with a point someone made earlier about hitting chidlren with different views to your own, I am inclined to say that good behaviour + conformity encouraged by harsh discipline (the active factor here, of which corporal punishment is only a constituent - penguins and birds) serves as a supresssant. As someone who was himself failed by a highly disclined childhood and schooling (corp punishment in the former, frequent verbal abuse in the latter), and later turned out to be myself... I like to think of myself as well behaved ... I can say that heavy discipline may help some children, fails others, but none of which takes away from the fact that it is still assault!

Going against the books are we? . I give more credibility to child psychologists that I do the experiences of one set of parents, which is at odds with others.

Let me put this to you: If you were in the position of, say, mid 20's, and about to have kids, would you rather they turn into attentive, docile, obediant, well behaved darlings, or upstarted, expressive, opinionated, subversive and free thinking individuals. I don't need to go into the nature of the education system here. I prefer the latter.

[rah]

Yes, there's a fine line there. but when kids are opinionated and subversive to the detriment of their fellow students through interuptions of the learning process, I do have a BIG problem with that. I don't want bart simpson types in my child's class.

My daughter is quite opinionated, but respects her teachers enough not to cause disruptions during classes. My daughter knows the difference. Most undisciplined children do not. Then the whole class suffers because of some spoiled class clown.

Your only real arguement is that corporal punishment in any kind is assault. A light spanking is a far cry from assault But it's obvious that you can't admit that without your whole arguement collapsing on itself, so you won't. And I doubt I will be able to be convinced that it is assault.

But it is comforting that not one other person that has posted thinks that a light spanking is assualt. There is hope for the next generation. I know that this doesn't make you wrong, but I'm glad a lot of people aren't agreeing with you about it.

[-Jrabbit]

Are we done now?

[rah]

Yeah, I think I've beaten this dead horse enough.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Let me put this to you: If you were in the position of, say, mid 20's, and about to have kids, would you rather they turn into attentive, docile, obediant, well behaved darlings, or upstarted, expressive, opinionated, subversive and free thinking individuals. I don't need to go into the nature of the education system here. I prefer the latter.

Mine are well behaved, opinionated, and very free thinking individuals. My kids question authority on a regular basis... but do it in a polite and respectable manner. Your point that these traits are inconsistent and "either/or" is also sadly mistaken.

But then again, I'm sure it's hard for you to understand since you aren't a parent and you have no clue what you are talking about

[Adam Smith]

Our older daughter can get pretty wound up, and sometimes needs a swat on the bottom to get her attention. I have no problem with that. The younger one almost never needs it.

We generally use a ticket system at our house. Went out and bought a roll of admission tickets like you might use for rides at a carnival. If a child is good that day she gets a ticket. Very good, two tickets. If she misbehaves, it costs her a ticket. Tickets are redeemable at the local toy store once a month at the rate of about 10 cents a ticket. Tangible reward plus a bit of sibing rivalry ("she got two today but I only got one") makes this a pretty effective system. When I had to single parent for a couple months this was the best 10 cents I ever spent.

[Japher]

Yeah, I think I've beaten this dead horse enough

Yup, moving on to the children

"Don't hit me any more mommy"

[rah]

Originally posted by Ming
But then again, I'm sure it's hard for you to understand since you aren't a parent and you have no clue what you are talking about

Oh, that's being a bit harsh. He does have to watch his younger brothers every now and then. That's almost like being a parent.

[Ming]

Yeah... right...

[Az]

Originally posted by Japher


Yup, moving on to the children

"Don't hit me any more mommy"

You ass, I almost suffocated.

[Japher]

When I was little and had to go somewhere with my mom I use to say that to try and catch people off gaurd.