Israel -- "Wants Peace" eh?

[MrFun]

Rah -- the everyday Palestinian lives in misery -- that I understand, and from THAT aspect, I sympathize.

However, I cannot sympathize with some of the Palestinian leaders who say one thing but not doing anything -- talk is cheap.

[rah]

Yeah, that's what I came to understand after being here for awhile; the misery of the common Palestinian.
You didn't see that side in the papers in the US much. (but I must admit, it's more common now, even in the more conservative papers.)
While the Israeli are to blame for part of it, I hold the Palestinian leadership responsible for most of it. As long as their goal is the total destruction of Israel, their people will pay the price for their stuborness.

[Sandman]

There's no worthwhile incentive for the state of Israel to seek peace at the moment. Not yet, anyway.

Still, well done to America for cutting the cost of the wall from their subsidies to Israel. A move in the right direction.

[chequita guevara]

Misery doesn't even begin to describe it. Suicide bombings are absolutely horrible, but Palestninians are murdered on a daily basis by Israel. That doesn't even take into account those who are wounded, those who have their houses and farms destroyed, those who are harrassed by soldiers, those are subject to arbitrary searches and seizures of their persons, or those who are tortured.

The difference, Palestinians committ war crimes. Israel is committing a crime against humanity. Both sides are wrong, but one is much more wrong than the other.

[el freako]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Killinhg the six-year old boy was bad, but he probably would have grown up to be a terrorist, so it's best to kill him now.

Good God Che,

Are you really advocating the killing of children because they may have grown up into terrorists (which, given the ratio of palestinian terrorists to the adult population is a very small risk)


(this is to show others how stupid the situation is, I know Che is being ironic)

[rah]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Misery doesn't even begin to describe it. Suicide bombings are absolutely horrible, but Palestninians are murdered on a daily basis by Israel. That doesn't even take into account those who are wounded, those who have their houses and farms destroyed, those who are harrassed by soldiers, those are subject to arbitrary searches and seizures of their persons, or those who are tortured.

The difference, Palestinians committ war crimes. Israel is committing a crime against humanity. Both sides are wrong, but one is much more wrong than the other.

Yes, that may be true, but I have to blame the PAL leadership. If they were serious about peace, all they would have to do is reign in the terrorist/freedom fighter groups and acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and the pressure would be squarely on the Israeli to negotiate. I'm sure I'm not the only Israeli supporter that would be pissed if they didn't bargain in good faith after that. There credibility would be lost quite quickly and a lot of their support in the US would diminish to the point that politicians would get uncomfortable supporting them. Without US support, they'd be in a much tighter spot.

[Defiant]

Che,
The Palestinian people know who the terrorists are. I know if they turn them in, they and their family could face retribution by the remaining terrorists, however, they are dying anyway in an endless circle of violence, bite the damn bullet and start turning them in or quit supporting them. One begins to think that the Palestinian people by not turning in known terrorists, are bringing some of this death to their own doorsteps.

[Boris Godunov]

The situation on the Middle East must truly be precariously balanced if it is so necessary to post opposing Internet threads for EVERY DAMNED ISSUE that happens to arise.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by el freako


Good God Che,

Are you really advocating the killing of children because they may have grown up into terrorists (which, given the ratio of palestinian terrorists to the adult population is a very small risk)


(this is to show others how stupid the situation is, I know Che is being ironic)

No ones advocating it and no ones doing it. Children are killed in the course of pursuing terrorists, responding to shots from a crowd etc. Israel may well be negligent, and making a wrong tradeoff in risk of civilian death versus the safety to their troops and effectiviness in getting terrorists - but they are not murdering anyone, except in the views of those who choose to make no distinction between an unintended death and a deliberate murder.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
There's no worthwhile incentive for the state of Israel to seek peace at the moment. Not yet, anyway.

Still, well done to America for cutting the cost of the wall from their subsidies to Israel. A move in the right direction.

Lets see
1. Israeli civilians killed by terrorism
2. Israeli soldiers killed in the territories
3. Financial cost of occupation
4. Reduced trade and investment, leading to current recession in Israeli economy


Yup, I see plenty of incentive, assuming peace would end all of the above. And i cant see how a real peace wouldnt.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by rah
Yeah, that's what I came to understand after being here for awhile; the misery of the common Palestinian.
You didn't see that side in the papers in the US much. (but I must admit, it's more common now, even in the more conservative papers.)
While the Israeli are to blame for part of it, I hold the Palestinian leadership responsible for most of it. As long as their goal is the total destruction of Israel, their people will pay the price for their stuborness.

What are the Israeli actions that cause the misery - primarily check points, limits on work in Israel. Which are directly related to security.

[lord of the mark]

this might explain the timing of the latest incursions

AP

"JERUSALEM - Israeli police raided a West Bank mosque on Wednesday, capturing two Palestinians who allegedly were planning to attack a school. One was reportedly wearing an explosives belt.



Security forces went on high alert in the northern Israeli towns of Afula and Beit Shean after what the army said were "numerous" warnings of Palestinian attacks. One main road was closed and roadblocks posted on others. "

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
3. Financial cost of occupation
4. Reduced trade and investment, leading to current recession in Israeli economy

These are the two that should be the focus of dissidents. Palestinians really don't have anything to lose fiscally, since they're already rife with abject poverty. Israel, however, is a country that needs economic prosperity to continue to function as it does. So disrupting Israeli commerce and making the situation unbearable for business would be the most effective way to bring real pressure on the government to resolve the issue quickly.

War is bad for (most) business.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


These are the two that should be the focus of dissidents.

It already is. The post that israel has no incentive for peace was totally incorrect. The differences within Israel are over what its worth giving up for peace, and whether they yet have a partner with whom a stable peace can be made. And how to get to such a partner if they dont (IE the case can be made that Arafat is not a genuine partner, but that Sharon missed a chance to undermine Arafat by failing to make more concessions while Abbas was in office - though there are counter arguments to that)

[Bereta_Eder]

Yet war is very beneficial to any given army's budgets and standing and the interntional arms industries. Also Israel gets the highest financial aid from the US. 10 bil. dollars was the latest IIRC so it has other sources of income as well.