Yeah!!!! Stick it to those mother$%^& and break it off!!!!

[Ramo]

Hmm... I was just about to post that this would seem like a pretty idiotic move on the part of the Fedayeen, given that large scale ambushes by Iraqi militants are precisely what tend not to succeed. I mean, attacking concentrated US forces is recipe for disaster. The reason why the guerillas been so successful especially in the last month is because they've been acting on a much smaller scale.

The articles Tingkai and Sava have posted would mesh more easily with that conclusion. After all, where did the bodies go?

[Sava]

After all, where did the bodies go?

next to Jimmy Hoffa, OBL, Saddam, and WMD's

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Zylka
Really embarrassing development. I'd like to hear from experienced soldiers to confirm how such a situation normally works... but NO bodies?

Estimates of the number of attackers are the spottiest number of all - you can see those who are firing, get an rough idea if you see movement, but that's it. In a guerilla situation, you can have far more "support" elements, people blending as civilians, all sorts of things. Presumably if these guys intended to get the money, they'd have getaway vehicles to haul it off - they sure as hell wouldn't try to drive a US Army issue 5 ton down the main highway. Those getaway vehicles wouldn't be in the fight, nor would their drivers be, but they'd be available just out of sight.

Ammo bearers, mortarmen, anti-helo spotters, lookouts and couriers would also be likely to be part of the guerilla support force, but wouldn't likely be seen or numbered in with the attackers. So there's plenty of people out there who could haul off bodies, again for psychological effect. Given the spate of assassinations of Iraqi "collaborators" and even a member of the governing counsel, I would expect civilians in the area, who still have to live in the area, to give "massaged" statements and reports friendly to the insurgents, whether they really want to or not.

Ultimately, only the eyewitnesses and immediate chain of command really know the situation, but an absence of bodies and local denials are completely possible and not particularly surprising given the nature of the conflict.

[Sava]

Ultimately, only the eyewitnesses and immediate chain of command really know the situation, but an absence of bodies and local denials are completely possible and not particularly surprising given the nature of the conflict.

yeah, I'm not really deadset in either conclusion... I just thought it was weird.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ramo
Hmm... I was just about to post that this would seem like a pretty idiotic move on the part of the Fedayeen, given that large scale ambushes by Iraqi militants are precisely what tend not to succeed. I mean, attacking concentrated US forces is recipe for disaster. The reason why the guerillas been so successful especially in the last month is because they've been acting on a much smaller scale.

I hate to use a Vietnam analogy, but Tet was a pretty spectacular FUBAR for the VC from every military aspect. From the psychological and political aspect it was great - for the NVA, but not the VC because they got used and expended.

The Saddam Fedayeen are pledged to die for Saddam, so they are a fanatic force, and perhaps they wanted nothing more than to make a demonstration that they still had the capability of appearing in force. Or of showing up in the night to keep the locals firmly in line, if they needed any encouragement?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Whoha
These guys aren't pows, they were Fedayeen Saddam. Those are the guys we have tapes of torturing people,throwing them off of buildings,etc. The Geneva convention clearly states that a group that acts the way these guys do(in addition to not being a recognized military force) is not protected.

Saddam Fedayeen taken in uniform are certainly POWs. They do constitute an organized militia with a distinct chain of command, and their conduct in internal political oppression of Iraqis is not an issue with respect to the laws and customs of war. Nor is their internal disciplinary procedures, which is, IIRC, what was on the videotape. Individual atrocities or violations of the laws and customs of war would create individual exceptions to POW status, but there is no blanket organizational exception.

[Ramo]

Hmm... fair enough, Mike. And that'd explain the local disagreements over the story.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
quote:
Originally posted by techumseh
The Iraqi's have had their country invaded and occupied. They have a right to fight back. I hope they succeed. :/quote

Yes, and they had a peace-loving benevolent government that reflected their popular will, too.

(a) is true. (b) is not.

[techumseh]

It certainly looks like there is no objective basis for the casualty figures which appeared in media yesterday. There doesn't seem to be an actual body count. Perhaps it's a bit of propaganda for the troops and the home front?

[JohnT]

Perhaps the iraqis used their remaining WMD's to destroy the bodies?

[Sava]

Elvis stole them with his Roswell UFO!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by techumseh
It certainly looks like there is no objective basis for the casualty figures which appeared in media yesterday. There doesn't seem to be an actual body count. Perhaps it's a bit of propaganda for the troops and the home front?

Not likely at all to be effective if it was tried - the grapevine talk throught the ranks of 4 ID, then to the rest of the Army, would move a lot faster than the "official" word.

[Kuciwalker]

Once again, I am opposing the fact that people gloat over the dead. To kill the enemy is normal. To gloat about it is not.

Spiffor, the gloating I've seen has been "haha, you guys SUCK and you are MORONS and you DIED haha", which seems to me, if a bit pointless, at least understandable and acceptable. Maybe it wasn't sportsmanlike, but it isn't really all that bad.

[HershOstropoler]

So now they say no bodies, but initially they had bodies with fedayeen uniforms? I suppose this is another Jessica Lynch story - it will take months to know what happened, and what we have now is propaganda based on chaotic information.

But that doesn't matter much in the big picture. As I said in the beginning, MtG has been cheering an own goal.

[Ted Striker]

In any case it is clear USA Army kicked Fedayeen azz

Kill them all

The sooner they die the sooner we have peace

They want to die anyway so I feel no remorse for them