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While the trade was maintained, the entire economy collapsed. The GDP crumbled by some 50 percent, twice in the 90s.
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LOTM: Why do you insist on debating people so out of touch with reality that they pine for the bygone days of a totalitarian regime?I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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I am out of touch with reality? When have you been to the SU? when have you been to Georgia? do you know any people from Georgia?
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And do you think this was avoidable by keeping the SU together from 1991 on?Originally posted by Azazel
While the trade was maintained, the entire economy collapsed. The GDP crumbled by some 50 percent, twice in the 90s."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Dino may or may not know such people. Im not sure it matters. Its a fact that the economy declined rapidly. I dont think anyones disputing that - the question is was that something that could have been avoided? If so to what extent? And how does that balance with the gains in individual and national freedom? Note well - most of what we hear about how bad the fall of the SU was comes from Russians - not many voices (certainly none that I know of here) from Central asia, Ukraine etc. We do get some baltics - not surprising they all seem to thing the fall of the SU was a good thing, as far as I can tell.Originally posted by Azazel
I am out of touch with reality? When have you been to the SU? when have you been to Georgia? do you know any people from Georgia?
(and im not sure how to count a Georgian-born Israeli Jew, probably a child of one of those Ashkenazim who went to Georgia cause it was less antisemitic than russia, and his probably nostalgic family
)
BTW Im not saying that GEORGIA hasnt been a rotten mess since 1991. Of course a very large part of that has been the result of Russian interference in Georgia - kinda like blaming the fall of the British empire for the problems of some African country being messed up by neocolonialism."A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin BuberComment
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Yes. From the info I've seen the economy of large parts of the Soviet Union was quite backward. For example, making a telephone call in East Germany was quite the adventure. I fail to see how proping up the failing juggernaut would do anything other than ease your rose colored perceptions of the situation.Originally posted by Azazel
I am out of touch with reality?
Imran is living in Atlanta, IIRC.do you know any people from Georgia?
Last edited by DinoDoc; November 25, 2003, 17:02.I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator RubioComment
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Originally posted by DinoDoc
Imran is living in Atlanta, IIRC.
Hey look everyone -- DD thinks being a smart*ss makes you look cool.
A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.Comment
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I tend to agree with LOTM in the sense that it was not the fall of the USSR as such that brought misery on the people, but it was rather the fall of the system.
Furthermore, if the USSR didn't desintegrate in 1991, the situation would now be even worse. Well, at least for Russia (perhaps not so for Georgia).Freedom is just unawareness of being manipulated.Comment
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It doesn't?
Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.Comment
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While all this may be true, it would be wrong to equate the British Empire with the Soviet Union. The former was a classical empire, while the latter was a new kind of empire.Originally posted by lord of the mark
Have some of the succesor states been unstable? Ditto for the British empire. Has the withdrawl left behind civil wars and other conflicts? Ditto for the Brit empire. Did the brits create some of those conflicts, through divide and rule - so did the Soviet Union. Was the loss of empire traumatic for the ruling people, the Russians? Ditto in the case of the British empire.
Freedom is just unawareness of being manipulated.Comment
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The latter was an Evil Empire.Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.Comment
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Speaking of which, I've noticed something...The torch of the "Evil Empire" seems to enjoy traveling East within a very short amount of time.
Berlin -----> Moscow ------------------> Washington
The former two took a bite out of Lithuania
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Sending an SMS in the US is quite an adventure too.Originally posted by DinoDoc
For example, making a telephone call in East Germany was quite the adventure.
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul ValeryComment
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Much good it brought them, eh?Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Speaking of which, I've noticed something...The torch of the "Evil Empire" seems to enjoy traveling East within a very short amount of time.
Berlin -----> Moscow ------------------> Washington
The former two took a bite out of Lithuania
Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb !
Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.Comment
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Yes. From the info I've seen the economy of large parts of the Soviet Union was quite backward. For example, making a telephone call in East Germany was quite the adventure. I fail to see how proping up the failing juggernaut would do anything other than ease your rose colored perceptions of the situation.
East Germany indeed has improved ( but it now faces other problems) OTOH, the vast majority of the people of the SU have suffered immensly from the fall of the SU. You can talk about phones ( which haven't improved in most places, since that requires money that isn't there ), and we can talk about no central heating, no jobs, no food... and the ensuing crime, lack of personal safety, etc. etc.
I tend to agree with LOTM in the sense that it was not the fall of the USSR as such that brought misery on the people, but it was rather the fall of the system.
Duh! The Soviet Union was the system!Comment
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