Georgia

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Hueij
I don't get it. Shevarnadze was the good guy during the last years of the USSR.

yes, but like an aging athlete, he hung too long.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Never liked the old bastard. What happened is in particular a result of his petty pet-state politics. It is sad though that he was ousted through a coup d'etat. It's even more sad that hardcore nationalists may come to power in this situation.

Its very hopeful that the people of an ex-Soviet state decided NOT to accept unfair elections, and took to the streets in the defense of democracy. people power is still alive, this should get a lot of people thinking.

[Sava]

The real question is... which would you rather live in... the state or the country...

hmm... tough one...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The fall of the SU brought pain and misery to a lot of people.

The survival of the Soviet Union did so as well. Political change tends to bring pain and misery as well as progress.

I thought Paitis was just opposed to imperialist wars - are you also opposed to peaceful change as well? Or are you just nostalgic for the SU?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The fall of the SU brought pain and misery to a lot of people.

The fall of the British empire also brough pain and misery to a lot of people. Whats your point?

[Sava]

wow LOTM... patty cakes sure got your panties in a bunch.. LOL

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sava
wow LOTM... patty cakes sure got your panties in a bunch.. LOL

yeah, regret over the fall of totalitarian states tends to do that.

[Sava]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


yeah, regret over the fall of totalitarian states tends to do that.

you'd regret it if the US fell... but hey, one man's totalitarian state is another man's utopia...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sava
you'd regret it if the US fell... but hey, one man's totalitarian state is another man's utopia...

[Saras]

Originally posted by paiktis22
The fall of the SU brought pain and misery to a lot of people.

0.01/10

[Bereta_Eder]

the brit "empire" was not the same as the SU

wherever the brit empire crumbled under the guns of the people, the nations flourished.

[Kramerman]

yeah, same with the Spanish Empire... oh wait, nevermind...

[Az]

The fall of the SU was a disaster for the vast majority of it's people. these are the facts, lotm, like it or not.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by paiktis22
the brit "empire" was not the same as the SU

wherever the brit empire crumbled under the guns of the people, the nations flourished.

nice qualifier. In what places do you consider to it to have curmbled under the guns of the people? Im sure we could make a similar qualifier for the SU, that would limit it to say the Baltics.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel
The fall of the SU was a disaster for the vast majority of it's people. these are the facts, lotm, like it or not.

I disagree. The decline of the Soviet economy was a disaster for its people, but that would have happened anyway, and was indeed already happening by 1991. The FSU states have had plenty of opportunity to maintain trade and other ties with Russia, and to the extent that those have been beneficial they have done so. The fact is that the Baltics are moving eagerly into Europe, Ukraine is reorienting towards Eurupe. Most central asians are not eager for reintegration Russia. And the Georgians I think are not eager either.

Have some of the succesor states been unstable? Ditto for the British empire. Has the withdrawl left behind civil wars and other conflicts? Ditto for the Brit empire. Did the brits create some of those conflicts, through divide and rule - so did the Soviet Union. Was the loss of empire traumatic for the ruling people, the Russians? Ditto in the case of the British empire.