New explosions in Istanbul!

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Correction:
I think there are a lot of other muslim countries which are secular.

Originally posted by Ramo
For instance, Bangladesh and Indonesia (which actually are both much larger than Turkey) are both secular and nominally democratic.

'Course, I wouldn't really say they're democratic, but then again I wouldn't call Turkey democratic either.

Actually, Turkey is the only country that has enshrined secularism as a clearly stated and defined principle in its constitution, thereby closing all institutional ways and byways or loopholes for religious extremists to work their way into state structure.

And needless to say, Islam has a history of being political. It was (and still is in some places) inconceivable throughout Islamic history to imagine Islam to be something not covering every aspect of human activity. Social contracts, relation of the individual towards the state, legal system, economy and by default politics were never thought in any way different or seperate from the practice of religion.

In light of this prevalent and suffocating interpretation of Islam, Turkey cut the Gordion's knot instead of trying to fit modernity into the tight shirt of obsolete tradition, as the vast majority of Muslim countries try with varying degrees of success today. How dangerous an alternative is that for AQ?

There are in the Muslim world varying degrees of secularism, some declare Islam as state religion. Some like Indonesia fall short of that but lacking a state commitment to secularism, there's a growing pressure on the government to adopt Islam as state religion. You don't have that in Turkey.

Bangladesh has Islam as official state religion since 1988.

Originally posted by Ramo
'Course, I wouldn't really say they're democratic, but then again I wouldn't call Turkey democratic either.

In all fairness compare Turkey with any other Muslim country and you should call it democratic.

It now meets even the EU criteria after the recent constitutional amendments, as even the ever-stringent EU commission points out to no fundamental shortcoming on Turkey's behalf but rather wants to observe implementation of recent amendments.

You can use this to say "see, as long as you don't implement things, you're not democratic", but the failures of implementation are not endemic nor are they as severe as the stereotype would lead many to believe.

This should steal a lot of steam from the rather straightforward statement of "Turkey cannot be called democratic"

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
My parents are in Istanbul at the moment, flying home tonight. Hope they're okay.

Buck, I really hope everything's fine with your parents and you're with them at home as you read this...

[Buck Birdseed]

They're fine, but I think flying 700 km to welcome them home is a mite excessive.

[Bereta_Eder]

Nice metaphore there with the gordian knot

Actually one of the concerns, in a european level, vis a vis Turkey's entrance to the EU is this: that the military is required to keep Turkey secular but for doing so it inevitably interferes in its politics. And that makes democracy suffer greatly.

However, the argument goes, if the army gets out of politics, thus elevating the level of democracy in Turkey to "european" standards, then the country could lose a large part of its secularism.

Some people present it as a catch - 22 case. That's why Shroeder has said that Turkey's society requires "small revolutions", meaning the acquirmement of the possibility to oust the military off of politics and remain secular.

That's one opinion but if I dare say, it really is the "big" one. The big question.

Needless to say I'm in favour of a fully democratic Turkey entering as a full member of the EU. Half of my summers I'll be there

[TheStinger]

It took Greece less than 15 years to go form military rule to being able to join the EU so there must be hope for Turkey.

I hope they do join.(once they've stopped torturing Kurds though)

[Bereta_Eder]

Actually it took just 7 years after the overthrow of the colonels' junta, but Greece never had the danger of not being secular. Hence there was no "endemic" drawback.

Also if I dare say the 7 year junta interlude was an anomaly (with many responsible parties and the silent and criminal support of the Junta by the US and UK governments) in the more or less democratic road of Greece after the civil war of 1945. Bare in mind that the entry to the tehn European Coomunity was scheduled for some year in the '60s and "froze" during the dictatorship.

However in Turkey ever since its creation as a modern state in the 1920's the army has always held that position.

[Bereta_Eder]

That does not mean there's no hope of course. Actually with the rise of the seculer islamists government in Turkey there had been progress in getting the military to pull back somewhat from politics, as was seen in Greece - Turkey relations.
However after that attack I have to say that the military can have a very big "benefit" unfortunately and a return to the little authority it may have had relenquished or at least was going to. That would actually IMO be a recession of the "military withdrawl" process.

[Pekka]

Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
They're fine, but I think flying 700 km to welcome them home is a mite excessive.

That's a relief . I'm glad it's all settled, not knowing is almost the worst part, even though the chances of anything bad was very small.. but still.. the longer you wait, worse it gets.

[MikeH]

Glad your parents are OK Buck.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Aren't you a Christian or something?

Yes, I am a Christian. But being a Christian does not mean you have to be a pacifist. Probably most Christians are not pacifists.

There are times when non-violence is called for. For example, when dealing with injustice or persecution, the Bible calls us to turn the other cheek.

But there are other times when violence in self-defense is neccessary. For example, when Israel as a nation was threatened by aggressive neighbors, God frequently called them to wage war to protect themselves.

Also, the Bible calls us to submit to government. So, if the government drafts us in the military, I believe Christians should submit to that decision and serve.

The bottom line is, I think there are some cases where self-defense is appropriate. To never ever be willing to defend your life or the lives of people you love, no matter what, is utterly idiotic IMO.

[dannubis]

it is ...

but what you are promoting is a little bit more radical than defending the lives of the ones you love ...

"For example, when Israel as a nation was threatened by aggressive neighbors, God frequently called them to wage war to protect themselves."

ah, a jihad kind of thing ... I didn't know you supported this ...

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by dannubis
it is ...

but what you are promoting is a little bit more radical than defending the lives of the ones you love ...

How so? I am not advocating a jihad or anything. I was merely saying that a government has the right to go to war in defense of the country, like the US has done in WW2, and other places.

"For example, when Israel as a nation was threatened by aggressive neighbors, God frequently called them to wage war to protect themselves."

ah, a jihad kind of thing ... I didn't know you supported this ...

Well, if you knew the kind of barbaric stuff the philistines and other pagan tribes practiced, I think you would be just as sickened by it as God was. Did you know they would throw their newborn babies into fires alive, as offering to their "gods"?

[dannubis]

did you know that during the first crusade the inhabitants of nicea were slaughtered to the last man even though they were christians ...

but hey, how were the crusaders to know right ?

and as for another thing, a lot has been done in the past in the name of god, and i can't think of one thing that didn't turn out as a worst case scenario ...

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by dannubis
and as for another thing, a lot has been done in the past in the name of god, and i can't think of one thing that didn't turn out as a worst case scenario ...

Agreed! There have been many times when people did terrible things thinking or believing they were acting in the name of god when they were not!

[dannubis]

"inch' allah" ????

"may god continue to bless the US ..." ????

both of these sentences sicken me each time when i hear them (and by the way, if one listens to bushes speeches you hear the second one a bit more as the first one).

the only guy who supposedly got a message from god died almost 2000 years ago.

So who are you (or your governement) to deside whether it is morally right or not to go and fight a war which can only have one result : more terrorism.