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  • #61
    Bush has little time for the UN? He seems to have spent more time before the UN arguing the US case than any prior president. The UN has backed the US position in all cases except for the famous "second vote" that would have given Saddam a second ultimatum.

    Did you mean to say that the US under Bush does not role over and play dead when the French disagree with the US? That would be an accurate statement.
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    • #62
      Re: Re: Re: Bush's visit to Britain

      Originally posted by Sandman
      Woodrow led America to pre-eminence; Bush is leading it into the abyss.
      Woodrow Wilson led America out of Isolationism. Maybe Bush will lead it back into Isolationism. Not exactly the Abyss, but it would certainly make the world a more unsafe place if an offended America was simply to crawl under table and hide. However, the game can still be a lot of fun even when you have to follow the rules!

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      • #63
        Re: Re: Re: Bush's visit to Britain

        Originally posted by Sandman
        Woodrow didn't launch the First World War,
        Of course he didn't. He merely got the Americans involved in the "Great War" using much the same rhetoric that Bush is using now. "Making the world safe for democracy and all that rubish. If anything I'd say that Bush is quite the militant Wilsonian.
        Woodrow led America to pre-eminence
        He was also quite the failiure as a statesman who was roundly ignored both at home and abroad fairly quickly after the war. Truman has a better claim to leading America to pre-eminence anyway.
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        • #64
          Wilson led the US to pre-eminence?

          As DD says, he was almost universally reviled or ignored. Anyway, the neoconservatives are just dressed up Wilsonians. The only difference between the two is that the neoconservatives have been suckling at the *** of superpowerdom for a half century.
          Last edited by DanS; November 16, 2003, 21:15.
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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          • #65
            Bush has little time for the UN? He seems to have spent more time before the UN arguing the US case than any prior president. The UN has backed the US position in all cases except for the famous "second vote" that would have given Saddam a second ultimatum.
            Window dressing. Bush only cares about the UN when it can be subverted for his purposes. He doesn't care about international laws or justice.

            Of course he didn't. He merely got the Americans involved in the "Great War" using much the same rhetoric that Bush is using now. "Making the world safe for democracy and all that rubish. If anything I'd say that Bush is quite the militant Wilsonian.
            Wilson wanted a world of laws, an 'association of nations'. Do Bush's actions suggest that he wants this?

            He was also quite the failiure as a statesman who was roundly ignored both at home and abroad fairly quickly after the war. Truman has a better claim to leading America to pre-eminence anyway.
            Fair enough.

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            • #66
              Now, you could hardly call the pro-peace faction today a reactionary force.
              So all of them must be liberal? I find that hard to believe from my perspective. I know a fair number of conservative, and even, *shudder* reactionary pacifists. Same results, but very different justifications.
              Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
              "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
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              • #67
                Woodrow Wilson led America out of Isolationism. Maybe Bush will lead it back into Isolationism.


                This argument always gets me. How is invading Iraq an isolationist act (from whatever portion of the spectrum you are on)? It is by all accounts exactly OPPOSITE of isolationism. Isolationism was to sit around and not go.

                Wilson wanted a world of laws, an 'association of nations'. Do Bush's actions suggest that he wants this?


                Actually yes. The world that Bush wants may not be what you want, but in the end he definetly wants a world of laws and an association of nations. Before then he wants to democratize the ME, so you get countries that will follow the laws.
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                • #68
                  If anything I'd say that Bush is quite the militant Wilsonian.


                  Does anyone else remember that piece a while back that examined the influence of Wilsonian values on Bush's foreign policy? I think it was a piece in Newsweek by Fareed Zakaria, but I can't remember for sure. Little help?
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                  • #69
                    Does anyone else remember that piece a while back that examined the influence of Wilsonian values on Bush's foreign policy? I think it was a piece in Newsweek by Fareed Zakaria, but I can't remember for sure. Little help?


                    There was a piece in Time which said so. I believe that I may have linked that when it came out... but there have been a NUMBER of articles comparing ole Woodrow to George W.
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                    • #70
                      President Bush's Woodrow Wilson Problem
                      http://hnn.us/articles/1451.html
                      Not many Americans outside the historical fraternity have heard of Philip Dru. Even among that well-informed group, not many are willing to admit the powerful role Philip Dru played in shaping the history of the twentieth century. You may be nonplused to discover that Philip Dru is a character in a novel, Philip Dru, Administrator. It is not a very good novel. But its main character and his message acquired enormous significance when the author, Colonel Ed
                      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
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                      • #71
                        Re: Re: Bush's visit to Britain

                        Originally posted by DinoDoc
                        How so? They both lauched wars to defend democracy and ended up instaling the UK as a major power in Iraq.
                        “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                          [The world that Bush wants may not be what you want, but in the end he definetly wants a world of laws
                          That the US oligarchy makes, and that are binding on everyone except the US.
                          “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                          • #73
                            There was a piece in Time which said so. I believe that I may have linked that when it came out... but there have been a NUMBER of articles comparing ole Woodrow to George W.


                            I probably missed them all; I haven't been able to read a proper magazine in months. I really hate being illiterate...
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                            • #74
                              What they have in common is a dangerous mix of missionary zelotism, bigotry and self delusion. Although Bush will reap the consequences earlier.
                              “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                              • #75
                                They also both had to deal with two-faced and treacherous European leaders. The similarities really are striking...
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