12 Italians Dead in Iraq!

[Bereta_Eder]

Mourn the dead.
After that what?
Thinking not of political repercussions is closing your eyes and truely insulting those dead, for a change.
Attacking Berlusconi because of this? Sure. He sent them in didn't he?

By doing so he legitimized the attrocities in Iraq.
Helping? You think the agloamericans want help? Why? So they can eat 2 Bigmacs instead of one while you share the burden of their criminal monstrocity? Anmd legitimizing it as well?
Of course you should let them deal with what they've done and thus helping that such things do not repeat.
And helping the Iraqui people was not on the agenda. Pacifying a bombed and massacred people so they will not object when their country is being sucked dry by their companies is the "help" you're talking about.

Right. I think the onces who truely insult the dead, amongst them the Iraquis who died, I didn't see anyone of our Milaneze Bberlusconi enthusiasts friends mentioned them, are those who chose not to think, after of course, they've mourned.

[Ned]

That last post by paiktis was bizzare!

I was going to ask just how sending Italian military police to Iraq was legitimizing Saddam's attrocities when paiktis made it clear that he considers a war of liberation from a mass murderer to be an attrocity.

paiktis, I never, ever want to hear from you again about how barbarous Hitler and his regime were. Saddam and Hitler were both fascist murderers who had to be overthrown. Just because Hitler killed Greeks and Saddam did not does not justify your condemnation of one and not the other.

[Angelo Scotto]

Thinking not of political repercussions is closing your eyes and truely insulting those dead, for a change.

Trying to pull those deads for your political convenience, this is what i find insulting.
It's obvious that we have different opinions on the matter and i'm very proud of this.

Attacking Berlusconi because of this? Sure. He sent them in didn't he?
By doing so he legitimized the attrocities in Iraq.

You can attack Berlusconi on several choices but, IMHO, not on this one, i don't want him to remove italian troops from Iraq, i want France, Germany, Greece send their troops too, i want the UN to deploy the whole UNPROFOR!
As you probably know, UN was not a war supporter, but after the end of the war, in resolution 1483, it states:

[the security council] Appeals to Member States and concerned organizations to assist the
people of Iraq in their efforts to reform their institutions and rebuild their country,
and to contribute to conditions of stability and security in Iraq in accordance with
this resolution;

So Berlusconi sent Carabinieri in, as requested by UN, followed by Red Cross and other humanitarian organizations.
Do you know why the UN asked this? because strangely enough they think that it's more important to rebuild the country for Iraqui people than continuing to play your diplomacy games.

Now, if you really think that someone is "legitimizing atrocities", well look at the UN, not at Berlusconi.

Helping? You think the agloamericans want help? Why? So they can eat 2 Bigmacs instead of one while you share the burden of their criminal monstrocity? Anmd legitimizing it as well?

You continue to miss the point: the point is not the USA, the point is Iraq.
Let's say that Italians and all other military forces leave the area: Great party at paiktis home, a great slap in the face for the evil USA empire... but wait a moment, USA are happy too, they have their troops safe back at home, they don't have to spend huge quantity of money (i read 20 billion of dollars) in the effort of rebuilding Iraq... So who's the only one who will suffer truly from from your diplomacy slap? Obviously Iraq.

Of course you should let them deal with what they've done and thus helping that such things do not repeat.

Letting Iraq to become another Somalia? I don't think that Italy should let Iraqui people to suffer and die in an endless civil-war just because, for the ten years to follow, paiktis and his friends can point their fingers at Iraq and say "you see? their sufference is due to the USA".

And helping the Iraqui people was not on the agenda. Pacifying a bombed and massacred people so they will not object when their country is being sucked dry by their companies is the "help" you're talking about.

No, the help i'm talking about is to reestablish electricity, to reestablish hospitals, to protect food, water and medicine convoys, all things that, i'm sorry to disrupt your illusions, were done and will be done again by italian troops in Nassiriya.

Right. I think the onces who truely insult the dead, amongst them the Iraquis who died, I didn't see anyone of our Milaneze Bberlusconi enthusiasts friends mentioned them, are those who chose not to think, after of course, they've mourned.

Bah, so you think that the method to honor the Iraquis who died is to remove all the troops and let Iraq become a second Somalia... you've a very strange way of reasoning.

BTW, for your information when someone talks about casualties or victims they're talking about ALL casualties or victims, i suppose i could add that our "lefties enthusiasts friends" never mentioned both Iraquis casualties AND Italian civil casualties (yes, there was some) but since i know that it's a pointless argument i'll let it down.

I notice that i've ignored the advice i gave Datajack a couple of posts ago but i promise i'm going to follow it in future: I think i've successfully communicated my feelings to all the people with enough intelligence to distinguish between a diplomacy game and the real life; unfortunately news of other deaths in Iraq continue to appear, let's hope that their sacrifice will be more useful for building a new Iraq than simply for "putting down Berlusconi".

[Sloth]

I do not care if you use the word idiot or testa di cazzo but my point was that instead of debating perfectly valid points you were resorting to insult

I'm not at all new in this forum...I've been here for more than 4 years...and I used to have good, heated discussions without beeing insulted and called a communist, like it happens in Italy as soon as someone disagree with you. I'm not even leftist, for God sake...in the test suggested here some month ago I resulted exactly in the center.
On the other end I do believe in peace and I can't respect a person that says that the peace flag is ass-wiping (yes, I've seen that post)..imagine how many would feel if I would say that the american or the italian flag are ass-wiping.

About the sadness of the tragedy...I do feel that the mourning that is now on display in Italy is in many cases insincere and I do not want to add another needless "I'm sorry". In addition to that I do feel that is irrational to mourn just "our" deaths....blood (American, English, Polish, Iraqui) has been flowing in Iraq for month now (for years I should say)..but here (in Italy) none seemed to care until last week.
So you do get the impression that the attitude is "we need some blood to be able to sit at the table of peace" (Mussolini justification for attacking France in 1940).
I'm not saying that that is the attitude of the guys that go in Iraq to sacrifice their lives...but it is the attitude of the politicians, that sacrifice other people lives in order to gain kudos in the eyes of US.


Moreover I remind you that much of the debate about sending troops was about its danger...in fact Martino (italian foreign minister) said he still thinks it was not dangerous ( ).

But at the end of the day my real point is not as much against the mission as it is against the mourning....I do feel nausea against this politically driven mourning.

But do I know...I'm an idiot, a communist, a whiner and a troll

[laurentius]

No, Sloth your a very reasonable fellow. It's the two other italians who obviously cant have a debate and behave.

[Datajack Franit]

yes, I've seen that post

And you were so excited it took you three days to find a proper reply.. very fitting

imagine how many would feel if I would say that the american or the italian flag are ass-wiping

Of course, the peace flag was the biggest marketing discover of the last 10 years; just take the gay flag, pring peace on it and sell it for 5 €- you have my respect

But do I know...I'm an idiot, a communist, a whiner and a troll

Good to see at least someone has discovered the meaning of self-awareness

No, Sloth your a very reasonable fellow. It's the two other italians who obviously cant have a debate and behave

I think you two complete each other, and that could mean much

[Brundlefly]

Originally posted by Cruddy
That will teach them to import pizza to a Muslim country.

This is terrible thing to say.... But more than that, it is a tragedy that you said it before I did....

Seriously though: RIP Italian soldiers.... Thanks for your sacrifice.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Im tired of always banning the usual suspects, so the opportunity to bag new trophies is always appealing.

Why don't a few people (if you have any doubts about whether I mean you, I do) get back to the subject of the thread, rather than spamming away with your respective opinions of each other?