Gays are born gay, I'm convinced of it.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Ned


Being female is not a defect, and yet some parents abort females because they prefer to have males.

I truly believe that most parents (except for the regligious) would choose to abort a gay fetus. If you seriously doubt this, and I do not think that you do, why don't we conduct a poll here on Apolyton.

And I truly believe that you need to get out more. I honestly can't imagine any of the people I'm close to -- including my extremely conservative but non-religious best friend -- aborting a fetus because they knew it would become a gay person. None of them, no matter how right-wing on the one hand or how pro-choice on the other, is either that homophobic or that cavalier about abortion. And none of them, certainly, would be that frighteningly narrow-minded about a life they themselves had created.

The world is actually full of enlightened, tolerant people. You should try to meet some sometime.

[Drake Tungsten]

I honestly can't imagine any of the people I'm close to -- including my extremely conservative but non-religious best friend -- aborting a fetus because they knew it would become a gay person.

I don't think you have a very good imagination. As Ned said, large numbers of fetuses are already aborted around the world simply because they are female. Why do you think gay fetuses would somehow be spared, when homosexuality is almost certainly a more disliked trait in a potential child than female gender is?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


And I truly believe that you need to get out more. I honestly can't imagine any of the people I'm close to -- including my extremely conservative but non-religious best friend -- aborting a fetus because they knew it would become a gay person. None of them, no matter how right-wing on the one hand or how pro-choice on the other, is either that homophobic or that cavalier about abortion. And none of them, certainly, would be that frighteningly narrow-minded about a life they themselves had created.

The world is actually full of enlightened, tolerant people. You should try to meet some sometime.

Rufus, then let's focus on the second question for a moment. How many parents of gays wish their kid were not gay?

Simply based on anecdotal evidence, I would think that the answer to this question is well above 75%. If this is true, I think you know what the average pro-choice parent would do to a gay fetus.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Why anyone would do such a thing is beyond my comprehension.

Because acting and talking camp is simply fabulous, silly-pants!

Homosexuality is NOT a defect!

Well, if homosexuality is a biologically pre-determined trait, it would be hard to argue that it isn't a defect. A gene that produces an abnormal brain structure that leads the sufferer to be attracted to reproductively useless mates is a defect if I've ever heard of one.

That being said, there is no conclusive proof that homosexuality is mainly the result of genetic factors, so I'll reserve my judgement for the time being.

But homosexuality is not an abnormality -- even if we do prove that it is based on genetics.


As for people in some cultures today aborting fetuses because they are female -- that as barbaric as people who would want to abort fetuses if they will turn out to be gay in life.

Maybe we should also base decisions on abortions for even more frivuluous reasons -- let's abort fetuses if they will end up with a natural hair color that parents do not like.

[Drake Tungsten]

But homosexuality is not an abnormality -- even if we do prove that it is based on genetics.

Good luck defending that one.

[Lancer]

Imagine getting the choice to abort or not because the kid was going to be gay. My being pro life would be the only thing to save the kids life, to be quite honest. THAT means that the kid may choose to be pro life when he gets old enough to make the choice, since it saved his life, which would result in the very first pro-life gay!

Now that's amazing!

[MrFun]

Strange how in this case, conservative pro-lifers seem the only hope for gay fetuses if it is proven in the future that sexual orientation is genetically-based.

Interesting comment, Lancer . . . . .

[Az]

But homosexuality is not an abnormality -- even if we do prove that it is based on genetics.

yes it is.





Seriously, the question is really simple. It doesn't follow one of the obvious rules for it to qualify as 'normal': "would humanity survive if everyone swinged that way?" I think we all know the answer.

[MrFun]

But because the vast majority of people are heterosexual, the survival of the human species is ensured.

To what extent can you base your argument on an impossible, hypothetical paradigm, Azazel??

[Lancer]

"Strange how in this case, conservative pro-lifers seem the only hope for gay fetuses if it is proven in the future that sexual orientation is genetically-based.

Interesting comment, Lancer . . . . ."

MrFun, vote republican and save homosexuality!

[Az]

To what extent can you base your argument on an impossible, hypothetical paradigm, Azazel??

you've asked me if it normal. my definition of 'normal' is a 'fully functional individual'. Since 'the inherent desire to procreate' is a trait of a fully functional individual, gay people are not 'normal', since they don't want to procreate. Btw, I hold the same opinion of the people that don't want to have kids, ever. I think it's wrong. Family planning? Yes!!!No kids?

[Az]

I would like to point out that I am much more critical of people that don't want to have kids than of gay people. Gay people are great. . Esp. those that want to have kids. In that case, there is absolutely nothing wrong what soever in being 'gay'.

Straight people that don't want to have kids are wrong.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Drake - Yes, people abort female fetuses. They also butcher their daughters' clits and kill them for having sex outside of marriage. But I haven't heard of that being done anywhere in the West; Asia, yes, Africa, yes, but not the West. And that's my point: Enlightenment values of tolerance have a stronger root here than some people credit, and we need to credit them more, and believe Fox News' view of the country less.

Ned - Not liking your child's homosexuality is a very different thing than destroying that child for it. I agree that some Americans probably would abort a gay fetus. But you underestimate (1) how serious a decision abortion is (typical for a guy, but surprising coming from a conservative); (2) how many other people are just fine with having gay family members; and (3) how expansive a parent's love can actually be from the very moment of conception.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Azazel Straight people that don't want to have kids are wrong.

There are many many many many many many many many straights who should not, under any circumstances, have children. We should praise, not damn, the few who realize this about themselves.

[Ned]

Rufus, I personally am pro-choice in that I believe Roe v. Wade hit the nail on the head. Republicans are not all anti-abortion.

(And just as an aside, the Dems constantly advise people to vote Democrat to save Roe v. Wade. What they ignore is that Blackmun, the justice who wrote the opinion, was a Republican appointed by Nixon.)