Let us cut the crap.

[Elok]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Whilst abortion isn't necessarily a good thing, sometimes it is the right thing to do.

For a start there are too many people on this planet in the first place, so getting rid of a few unwanted ones is a step in the right direction if you ask me.

Which begs the question:
Who wants you, anyway?

Why is sentience a qualifier? Especially given that a fetus's lack of sentience is a temporary condition; it will develop a will and self-awareness over time. Also, isn't killing a lifeform before it grows into a form you would hesitate to kill just a preemptive attack on your own conscience? Like I said, it's the same life, just at different stages.

And thank you for the etymology.

[MrBaggins]

You don't need to kill a fetus in most situations. Just remove the parasite from the womb, and it'll die all on its own, because its not viable life.

[Ben Kenobi]

A 2 cell zygote doesn't classify as being a human being... takes more than those two cells to become a viable human being.

Mr. Baggins:

Actually, the zygote has only 1 cell, formed from the union of gametes from the egg and sperm, which cease to exist at conception.

2 cells would be classified as an embryo, as cell division has already started.

Now as for viability, what does it measure? It has nothing to do with the person, but everything to do with the environment. Could you survive at the North Pole? No. The environment for an unborn child is the womb.

I suggest you read my argument more carefully Mr. Baggins, I do not say that a zygote is currently sentient, but rather he or she has the capacity to become sentient, just like an infant.

[GePap]

There is no such thing as a right to life. Every day we define people in different groups, and a fetus is not defined as a person, so this notion that this is about taking a human life to me can only be backed by religious conviction mostly.

I agree with Freako, the either or arguement is absurd: abortion is a legislative issue, not a constitutional one, or an either or one.

[MrBaggins]

The parasite merely has the potential to become. Its not enevitable.

I did, btw, read. You said that having human DNA somehow made the parasite a human.

[Elok]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
You don't need to kill a fetus in most situations. Just remove the parasite from the womb, and it'll die all on its own, because its not viable life.

You don't need to "kill" a human either, then. If I left you tied to a tree for five weeks you'd die on your own. Like Ben said, exposure to a hostile environment counts as killing.

Oh, and let's see some actual arguments, GePap. Condescension we're used to, but unjustified condescension is a bit much.

[MrBaggins]

There is a marked difference between a parasite with a dependence on a host organism, and a viable life form outside of a host.

Given your situation, I could untie myself, and then subsequently feed myself, after, of course, beating the snot out of you for tying me up.

Is a fetus self-reliant? Capable of changing its own circumstance?

[Ben Kenobi]

I did, btw, read. You said that having human DNA somehow made the parasite a human.

Mr. Baggins:

That is the biological definition, no?

I suggest you redirect your argument to personhood unless you wish to continue picking fights with biology.

Neither is it inevitable that an infant will become an adult. Should then all infants not be considered persons?

Every day we define people in different groups, and a fetus is not defined as a person,

Gepap:

That's precisely the former status of women. Do you believe that society has the right to abitrarily classify people as non-persons?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Elok


You don't need to "kill" a human either, then. If I left you tied to a tree for five weeks you'd die on your own. Like Ben said, exposure to a hostile environment counts as killing.

Oh, and let's see some actual arguments, GePap. Condescension we're used to, but unjustified condescension is a bit much.

What factual arguements exist about abortion? So you can say: at 7 months a fetus can fell pain..so what? So can a 50 year old man, and that 50 year old man has no right to live either. While in the pre-amble it may speak of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, the state has the right to take life, has the right to deputize people to take life..in essence, there is NO right to life for any human being. THe very fact that people speak about it using the US constitution is meaningless...that constitution governs 5% of humanity. The vast, vast majority of abortions happen in the third world. If anyone claims this is a universal issue, then a non-universal matter like the consitution of one single state means nothing.

That is what it simply boil down to: all rights are conditional, creation of human society, not in any way distinct from social existence. So as I said, I agree wityh Freako: abortion should be a simple legislative matter, and any debates about the either-or nature of the debate are totally faith based, be it a religious or secualr faith one uses as their justification.

Oh, and get the stick out of your butt, and learn what is condecension and what is not, BOY. (note, that was it)

[Elok]

A parasite is a symbiotic life form that coexists with a host to its own benefit and the host's detriment. The fetus exists as part of a natural biological process to continue the parents' bloodline, which is normally one of the main goals of living things in general. Pretty big difference.

And if you insist on being literal, we'll change the scenario. How about if I dumped you off on the moon without a spacesuit? Like the fetus, you would be incapable of living long enough to "change your own circumstance." This argument is pretty asinine IMO, but what about the elderly, the comatose, the mentally ill? What about the infant out of the womb? What's the distinction?

[Elok]

Please don't waste our time with Nietzsche-babble.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Elok
Please don't waste our time with Nietzsche-babble.

Nietzsche babble? NOw you are reaching, specially since Nietzsche would have never accepted the notion that the state and or society are a vital inintegral life of humanity (fi you take the time to read what he thought of states or societies).

IN India and China there are huge numbers of abortions by couples trying to get boys and not girls, far more abortions than are preformed in the US, and the political debate that rages is not about the "right to life" of fetuses, but of the possible dire demographic consequences. Yet last time I looked people in India and China are sentient human beings...and yet somewhow they don't get consumed by this moralizing here in the US and a few other spots.

For the greater part of human existance, and in the greater part even today of humanity this is not an issue of "rights" but of what policies a society should adopt and promote to remain vital and continuing. So what makes the few people out in the fringes both of humanity and time that argue like this was some apocalyptic battle?

[MrBaggins]

So you'd argue that a single cell, with DNA, was human... or specifically.. a human.

That is... a bipedal primate mammal?

So... if I took a cell from a pig. Removed the DNA. Then inserted human DNA. Would that be human?

---

And the distintion in environment is that I can take action to avoid such environments. Like not getting on a space ship in the first place, without knowing I'll have some method of support.

There are humans who are imperfect, who are unable to sustain themselves. These aren't analogous to the fetus however; a 1 day old fetus, no matter how perfect, could not survive outside its mother.

[Jaguar]

I would argue that the fetus does not have rights until it is able to feel emotion. (3 months after conception seems to be the magic number here. They first learn to cry and smile about then.) But even then, it's not that special. Dogs have emotions too.

I think viability is another important point in the development, and at that point it acquires more rights.

[Urban Ranger]

A fetus is not a person. A person is sentient, a fetus, embryo, or zygote is not.

So lets stick to facts, 'k?