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  • #121

    I'd say a fringe representing about 20-30 % of the electorate. About correct?

    less than 20.


    Overwhelming? Depends on how you draw the border. Though what's the point of the exercise?

    of course it depends on how you draw the border. the point of the exercize is to prove you wrong on that Israel's increase of borders has to be by taking up places like the Gaza strip.

    Ehm... it depends on how many palestinians you have inside the walls.

    Even if NO palestinians will be inside the walls. Ever heard of artillery?


    In some areas - so you shouldn't endorse the bull that I responded to, that "larger borders" per se work that way. It depends what areas you include, some of the settlements around Jerusalem are pretty interwtined with palestinian areas, for example.
    You responded to that "more territory usually means better defence[/q] The extraordinary just points out more strongly to the rule. The fact that those are "pretty intertwined" doesn't mean that those can be separated. I know this for a fact, since I have relatives living on the outskirts of Jerusalem. The fact that across the valley lies a palestinian town doesn't change the fact that you can place a wall between "us and them".


    Now cry me an ocean. How often does that happen in international relations?
    All the time, Everywhere. And that's true for every country. That doesn't change the nature of my question, which you didn't, because...

    So what is the point of gobbling up much of the westbank? On 1967 borders, there is a chance for peace. If you annex half of the westbank, there will never be peace

    What is this chance for peace you're talking of? As long as the RoR remains a pillar of mainstream palestinian demands, peace will NOT be found.


    How many wars can Israel afford to lose against the Arabs?

    quite a lot, if those aren't all-out wars. And believe me, NOONE wants Israel to lose an all-out war.
    urgh.NSFW

    Comment

    • #122
      I'm not sure where we actually disagree, in part I don't get you. Eg, artillery?

      "And believe me, NOONE wants Israel to lose an all-out war."

      Well this one I understand. The issue ends as soon as Iran, Syria or another enemy has nuclear weapons.
      “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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      • #123
        Well this one I understand. The issue ends as soon as Iran, Syria or another enemy has nuclear weapons.


        No, it gets a hell of a lot worse.

        Comment

        • #124

          I'm not sure where we actually disagree, in part I don't get you. Eg, artillery?

          Unilateral withdrawal= No control of what goes on on the other side. groups like Hamas, and IJ getting artillery is only a matter of time then. So they'll place a Grad launcher inisde a town, near a hospital, or something and will fire away at Israeli cities. Lots of dead civilians on both sides, then.


          "And believe me, NOONE wants Israel to lose an all-out war."

          Well this one I understand. The issue ends as soon as Iran, Syria or another enemy has nuclear weapons.

          Nothing will change, really. If Israel will be nuked, it will nuke everyone else, just like if it would be on the case of losing a conventional all-out war.
          urgh.NSFW

          Comment

          • #125
            Sure it's worse, but the effect of an outright Israeli conventional loss will be much more balanced.
            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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            • #126
              Yes, in that Israel would get nuked too. So much better.

              Comment

              • #127
                Originally posted by Azazel
                Unilateral withdrawal= No control of what goes on on the other side.
                Well depends on what you leave there. After Arafat and Sharon have in tandem dismantled the PA, most likely anarchy. Will it last? Will they take on Israel or each other? Who knows. But you still control the other side to pretty much the same extent as now as long as there is no real state established.

                The alternative is full reoccupation. You want that one?
                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                • #128
                  Originally posted by skywalker
                  Yes, in that Israel would get nuked too. So much better.
                  I haven't siad it's better. I have just said that it will pretty much eliminate the "NOONE wants Israel to lose an all-out war" issue.
                  “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                  • #129
                    No it wouldn't.

                    No one wants nuclear war in the middle east.

                    Comment

                    • #130
                      Sure it's worse, but the effect of an outright Israeli conventional loss will be much more balanced.

                      No. it will mean the death of this society, in both cases. I am taking about a REAL loss. not some stalemate.



                      Well depends on what you leave there. After Arafat and Sharon have in tandem dismantled the PA, most likely anarchy. Will it last? Will they take on Israel or each other? Who knows. But you still control the other side to pretty much the same extent as now as long as there is no real state established.

                      The control Israel currently has on what goes on on the side is due to the current occupation regime ( which incompasses all but the hearts of the towns and cities, since noone here wants the death of our soldiers, and many many many more civilians) . With that gone, as the case in a unilateral withdrawal is, Israel will have little to no actual control on what is going there, and will have noone to trust that this lack of control won't translate into a lack of security.
                      urgh.NSFW

                      Comment

                      • #131
                        "No. it will mean the death of this society, in both cases."

                        Well let's assume the Israelis have been defeated and are on the retreat. Will you nuke Damuscus if that means Tel Aviv gets nuked? Maybe, maybe not. Or would you say a definite yes? Then I understand your view.
                        “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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                        • #132

                          Well let's assume the Israelis have been defeated and are on the retreat. Will you nuke Damuscus if that means Tel Aviv gets nuked? Maybe, maybe not. Or would you say a definite yes? Then I understand your view

                          "on retreat"? that's a big vague?

                          If Syrian forces will be on the way to Israel's city centers, then yes. ( Me is a bit personal, never asked the question myself). Will it happen ? YES.
                          urgh.NSFW

                          Comment

                          • #133
                            An Israeli 1st trike policy vs an arab nuclear power... depending on the arsenals on both sides, might as well invite an arab first strike.

                            But anyway, that's not exactly a happy future. And I wouldn't bet my country's existance on the Arabs being as disorganiszed, backwards and incompetent forever.
                            “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                            Comment

                            • #134
                              as long as noone will give up the right of return, as I said, we have little choice.
                              urgh.NSFW

                              Comment

                              • #135
                                Do you think Sharon would make a reasonable offer if the RoR demand were gone?
                                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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