Is it true that Russian troops looted/raped Berlin mid-evil style for 3 days...

[Pekka]

Because we called that area Karelia, and because it was not just a piece, it was rather large. That's why.

[Nubclear]

and that is why communism fell:

I disagree. Communism fell because it was too authoritarian and people within a communist state didn't want it. They wanted free speech more than they wanted factories.

But, I hereby give you my personal blessing of bombing Pikku G. Get the planes in the air, I'll try to convince our side to be cool and not try anything funny while you do little 'purification' .

I will inform Putin to this most wise decision Where will he be though?!

OMG you find a typo and must laugh.

I laugh at your pitiful, russophobic attempts at critisim.
Though the typo certainly halped

Just shows you how pityfull it is to even try to find an excuse or justification: The horrible behaviour of the Red Army in WW2 has as much to do with montruous Soviet indoctrination as it has with anything the soldiers might have experienced from the nazi's.

Hardly. While training does have some to do with it...Imagine if you knew somebody who was raped, or you FOUGHT in Stalingrad or you were temporarily captured and then rescued by the Soviets...Don't you think that would create a LOT of resentment?

It showes how backward the stalinists are,

This I agree with.

and because it was not just a piece, it was rather large.

And now....It's ROSSIYAS!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Ned
This is also a distinction between Sherman and the NAZI's as well. But not between Sherman and the Soviets in Germany.

Pardon? There was large scale rape during the March through Georgia? Citation?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Pekka
Because we called that area Karelia, and because it was not just a piece, it was rather large.

Not compared to Soviet Karelia it wasn't,

[Saras]

Oh, btw, the red army committed genocide - they killed ca. 200 000 ethnic Lithuanians in East Prussia (now Kaliningrad oblast). I say they have great forward strategic planning.

[Pekka]

Saras, yes... saying that I meant strictly what happened between us, and not other cases...

[Saras]

it was more like 130 000. The total figure, including Germans and Poles is more like 350 000. There are some gory accounts of mass rapes and public burnings

[BeBMan]

There are no exact numbers, sources vary from ca. 100000 - 800000 raped women in Berlin from spring to autumn of 45. According to a documentation of the ARD tv station ca. 10000 of them died, a lot of suicide, ca. 20 % of them became pregnant.

For the entire East German area numbers of up to 1.9 million cases of rape are given until the mid-50ies when everything "normalized". It is mainly argued that they weren´t done as revenge but mainly as a result of the horrors esp. of the warfare in the east which lead to a certain level of aggression and dehumanization even on the side of the winners. Several thousand cases in West Germany are also mentioned.

Oh, and this is not meant to bash Russia, I know what Wehrmacht SS SD etc. did there, but it is a story that shouldn´t be forgotten either.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Saras
Oh, btw, the red army committed genocide - they killed ca. 200 000 ethnic Lithuanians in East Prussia (now Kaliningrad oblast). I say they have great forward strategic planning.

it was more like 130 000. The total figure, including Germans and Poles is more like 350 000. There are some gory accounts of ... public burnings

I don't believe that.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Oh come on. A bunch of young soldiers finally get into the capital city of the government that liberally looted Soviet cities and raped their women. They enslaved people and killed them mericlessly, and you blame the Soviet soldiers for finally taking out their anger against Nazi Germany?

Uh, revenge is always irrational and unjustified. Yes, I blame the Soviets for what the Soviets did and I blame the Nazis for what the Nazis did.

Plunder is excusable, but physical violence isn't.

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar And now....It's ROSSIYAS!

Valid spellings are "rossiya's" and "rossiyi". Pick one.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


I laugh at your pitiful, russophobic attempts at critisim.
Though the typo certainly halped

I'm quite sure I have talked about soviet and not russian Where is your claim of 'russophobic' based on?

Hardly. While training does have some to do with it...Imagine if you knew somebody who was raped, or you FOUGHT in Stalingrad or you were temporarily captured and then rescued by the Soviets...Don't you think that would create a LOT of resentment?

As you may have noticed, I do know people who have been raped by the soviet advancing army. Girls then. Few countries in the world nowadays would allow penetration even with consent of the girls that age. And yet you ask me to condone the revenge imposed on them by the Red Army? For crimes commited by their countrymen?

Will you condone me now, when I can easily go outdoors, **** the **** out of some pityfull russian prostitute on the street here, humiliate them (god they are gastly creatures working in the gutter here, and they only cost a handfull of euro's) since I am enraged by what their countrymen has done to my family?

I hope you do not.

[GePap]

I still don't get this thread.

The war in the east was a war of annahilation, a war of ideology, a war of no quarters: no one was spared from any side. It was a brilliant case example of all the worst human urges, impulses and actions. IN this sense it was unlike anything else in WW2, the only things coming close being actions taken by the Japanese in Asia. The western front was a war recreation with a tea time compared to the Eastern front: so why exactly should anyone be either surprised or shocked that hell was brought upon the German population like it was brought down to every single population between the elbe and the Volga?

All we need to learn form this is that we must strive so that a campaing of this sort never ever takes place again.

[St Leo]

WW2 was, like all others, a bad war.

[GePap]

NOt all wars are equal, nor are all campaings.

War has been generally getting more and more antiseptic, regulated and controlled in the last 200 years, compared to the free for all of ancient times, and even then there were acts that stood out for viciousness and brutality.

But the Eastern front of WW2 was almost a throwback to older times of war with absolutely no quarters given, nothing spared and nothing sacred. I mean, as huge as the devastation in the west was, the devastation in the east was significantly higher, as a simple examination of population looses, both in absolutes and percentages show.

[Nubclear]

Oh, btw, the red army committed genocide - they killed ca. 200 000 ethnic Lithuanians in East Prussia

Genocide is the elimination of an entire ethnic group.
You'r still here, aren't you?

Uh, revenge is always irrational and unjustified.

True, however to blame them so harshly is really, well, stupid. It's human nature and quite understandable considering what happend.

Valid spellings are "rossiya's" and "rossiyi". Pick one.

Don't be a Nazi.

I'm quite sure I have talked about soviet and not russian Where is your claim of 'russophobic' based on?

Oh my....

And yet you ask me to condone the revenge imposed

When have I asked? Can you quote me?

I hope you do not.

Now when have I proposed killing someone because of their nationality? Can you quote me where I say this?
Really, when you make things up such as this (which have very little basis in reality) REALLY weakens your argument.

Try again
(Pre-emptive wordfare: Lithuania is an ongoing joke between Saras and I. I do not advocate the killing of Lithuanians.)

It was a brilliant case example of all the worst human urges, impulses and actions.

Finally, some rationality