Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Auschwitz in America

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Auschwitz in America

    Here's an interesting essay sent to me by a good friend.

    It examines some of the causes of the Holocuast, asserting that it is through euthanasia in Germany, was the starting point.

    Saturday, October 18, 2003
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    Auschwitz in America
    By William J. Federer
    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    Posted: October 18, 2003
    1:00 a.m. Eastern

    Even before the rise of Adolf Hitler's Third Reich,
    the way for the gruesome Nazi Holocaust of human
    extermination and cruel butchery was being prepared in
    the 1930 German Weimar Republic through the medical
    establishment and philosophical elite's adoption of
    the "quality of life" concept in place of the
    "sanctity of life."
    The Nuremberg trials, exposing the horrible Nazi war
    crimes, revealed that Germany's trend toward atrocity
    began with their progressive embrace of the Hegelian
    doctrine of "rational utility," where an individual's
    worth is in relation to their contribution to the
    state, rather than determined in light of traditional
    moral, ethical and religious values.

    This gradual transformation of national public
    opinion, promulgated through media and education, was
    described in an article written by the British
    commentator Malcolm Muggeridge entitled "The Humane
    Holocaust" and in an article written by former United
    States Surgeon General, C. Everett Koop, M.D.,
    entitled "The Slide to Auschwitz," both published in
    The Human Life Review, 1977 and 1980 respectively.

    Muggeridge stated: "Near at hand, we have been
    accorded, for those that have eyes to see, an object
    lesson in what the quest for 'quality of life' without
    reference to 'sanctity of life' can involve ...
    [namely] the great Nazi Holocaust, whose TV
    presentation has lately been harrowing viewers
    throughout the Western world. In this televised
    version, an essential consideration has been left out
    – namely, that the origins of the Holocaust lay, not
    in Nazi terrorism and anti-Semitism, but in pre-Nazi
    Weimar Germany's acceptance of euthanasia and
    mercy-killing as humane and estimable. ...

    "It took no more than three decades to transform a war
    crime into an act of compassion, thereby enabling the
    victors in the war against Nazism to adopt the very
    practices for which the Nazis had been solemnly
    condemned at Nuremberg."

    The transformation followed thus: The concept that the
    elderly and terminally ill should have the right to
    die was promoted in books, newspapers, literature and
    even entertainment films, the most popular of which
    were entitled "Ich klage an (I accuse)" and "Mentally
    Ill."

    One euthanasia movie, based on a novel by a National
    Socialist doctor, actually won a prize at the
    world-famous Venice Film Festival! Extreme hardship
    cases were cited, which increasingly convinced the
    public to morally approve of euthanasia. The medical
    profession gradually grew accustomed to administering
    death to patients who, for whatever reasons, felt
    their low "quality of life" rendered their lives not
    worth living, or as it was put, lebensunwerten Leben,
    (life unworthy of life).

    In an Associated Press release published in the New
    York Times Oct. 10, 1933, entitled "Nazi Plan to Kill
    Incurables to End Pain; German Religious Groups Oppose
    Move," it was stated: "The Ministry of Justice, in a
    detailed memorandum explaining the Nazi aims regarding
    the German penal code, today announced its intentions
    to authorize physicians to end the sufferings of the
    incurable patient. The memorandum ... proposed that it
    shall be possible for physicians to end the tortures
    of incurable patients, upon request, in the interest
    of true humanity.

    "This proposed legal recognition of euthanasia – the
    act of providing a painless and peaceful death –
    raised a number of fundamental problems of a
    religious, scientific and legal nature. The Catholic
    newspaper Germania hastened to observe: 'The Catholic
    faith binds the conscience of its followers not to
    accept this method.' ... In Lutheran circles, too,
    life is regarded as something that God alone can take.
    ... Euthanasia ... has become a widely discussed word
    in the Reich. ... No life still valuable to the State
    will be wantonly destroyed."

    Nationalized health care and government involvement in
    medical care promised to improve the public's "quality
    of life." Unfortunately, the cost of maintaining
    government medical care was a contributing factor to
    the growth of the national debt, which reached
    astronomical proportions. Double and triple digit
    inflation crippled the economy, resulting in the
    public demanding that government cut expenses.

    This precipitated the 1939 order to cut federal
    expenses. The national socialist government decided to
    remove "useless" expenses from the budget, which
    included the support and medical costs required to
    maintain the lives of the retarded, insane, senile,
    epileptic, psychiatric patients, handicapped, deaf,
    blind, the non-rehabilitatable ill and those who had
    been diseased or chronically ill for five years or
    more. It was labeled an "act of mercy" to "liberate
    them through death," as they were viewed as having an
    extremely low "quality of life," as well as being a
    tax burden on the public.

    The public psyche was conditioned for this, as even
    school math problems compared distorted medical costs
    incurred by the taxpayer of caring for and
    rehabilitating the chronically sick with the cost of
    loans to newly married couples for new housing units.

    The next whose lives were terminated by the state were
    the institutionalized elderly who had no relatives and
    no financial resources. These lonely, forsaken
    individuals were needed by no one and would be missed
    by no one. Their "quality of life" was considered low
    by everyone's standards, and they were a tremendous
    tax burden on the economically distressed state.

    The next to be eliminated were the parasites on the
    state: the street people, bums, beggars, hopelessly
    poor, gypsies, prisoners, inmates and convicts. These
    were socially disturbing individuals incapable of
    providing for themselves whose "quality of life" was
    considered by the public as irreversibly below
    standard, in addition to the fact that they were a
    nuisance to society and a seed-bed for crime.

    The liquidation grew to include those who had been
    unable to work, the socially unproductive and those
    living on welfare or government pensions. They drew
    financial support from the state, but contributed
    nothing financially back. They were looked upon as
    "useless eaters," leeches, stealing from those who
    worked hard to pay the taxes to support them. Their
    unproductive lives were a burden on the "quality of
    life" of those who had to pay the taxes.

    The next to be eradicated were the ideologically
    unwanted, the political enemies of the state,
    religious extremists and those "disloyal" individuals
    considered to be holding the government back from
    producing a society which functions well and provides
    everyone a better "quality of life." The moving
    biography of the imprisoned Dietrich Bonhoffer
    chronicled the injustices. These individuals also were
    a source of "human experimental material," allowing
    military medical research to be carried on with human
    tissue, thus providing valuable information that
    promised to improve the nation's health.

    Finally, justifying their actions on the purported
    theory of evolution, the Nazis considered the German,
    or "Aryan," race as "ubermenschen," supermen, being
    more advanced in the supposed progress of human
    evolution. This resulted in the twisted conclusion
    that all other races, and in particular the Jewish
    race, were less evolved and needed to be eliminated
    from the so-called "human gene pool," ensuring that
    future generations of humans would have a higher
    "quality of life."

    Dr. Koop stated: "The first step is followed by the
    second step. You can say that if the first step is
    moral then whatever follows must be moral. The
    important thing, however, is this: Whether you
    diagnose the first step as being one worth taking or
    being one that is precarious rests entirely on what
    the second step is likely to be. ... I am concerned
    about this because when the first 273,000 German aged,
    infirm and retarded were killed in gas chambers there
    was no outcry from that medical profession either, and
    it was not far from there to Auschwitz."

    Can this holocaust happen in America? Indeed, it has
    already begun. The idea of killing a person and
    calling it "death with dignity" is an oxymoron. The
    "mercy-killing" movement puts us on the same path as
    pre-Nazi Germany. The "quality of life" concept, which
    eventually results in the Hegelian utilitarian
    attitude of a person's worth being based on their
    contribution toward perpetuating big government, is in
    stark contrast to America's founding principles.

    This philosophy which lowers the value of human life,
    shocked attendees at the Governor's Commission on
    Disability, in Concord, N.H., Oct. 5, 2001, as they
    heard the absurd comments of Princeton University
    professor Peter Singer.

    The Associated Press reported Singer's comments: "I do
    think that it is sometimes appropriate to kill a human
    infant," he said, adding that he does not believe a
    newborn has a right to life until it reaches some
    minimum level of consciousness. "For me, the relevant
    question is, what makes it so seriously wrong to take
    a life?" Singer asked. "Those of you who are not
    vegetarians are responsible for taking a life every
    time you eat. Species is no more relevant than race in
    making these judgments."

    Singer's views, if left unchecked, could easily lead
    to a repeat of the atrocities of Nazi Germany, if not
    something worse. Add to that unbridled advances in the
    technology of cloning, DNA tests that reveal physical
    defects, human embryos killed for the purpose of
    gathering stem cells to treat diseases ... and a
    haunting future unfolds before us. President Theodore
    Roosevelt's warning in 1909 seems appropriate:

    "Progress has brought us both unbounded opportunities
    and unbridled difficulties. Thus, the measure of our
    civilization will not be that we have done much, but
    what we have done with that much. I believe that the
    next half century will determine if we will advance
    the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the
    horrors of brutal paganism. The thought of modern
    industry in the hands of Christian charity is a dream
    worth dreaming. The thought of industry in the hands
    of paganism is a nightmare beyond imagining. The
    choice between the two is upon us."

    In his State of the Union address in 1905, Roosevelt
    stated:

    "There are those who believe that a new modernity
    demands a new morality. What they fail to consider is
    the harsh reality that there is no such thing as a new
    morality. There is only one morality. All else is
    immorality. There is only true Christian ethics over
    against which stands the whole of paganism. If we are
    to fulfill our great destiny as a people, then we must
    return to the old morality, the sole morality. ... All
    these blatant sham reformers, in the name of a new
    morality, preach the old vice of self-indulgence which
    rotted out first the moral fiber and then even the
    external greatness of Greece and Rome."

    In biblical comparison, Jesus showed mercy by healing
    the sick and giving sanity back to the deranged, but
    never did he kill them. This attitude is exemplified
    today by Mother Teresa of Calcutta, whose version of
    "death with dignity" was to gather the dying from off
    the street and show compassion to these rejected and
    abandoned members of the human race, all the while
    knowing that they may only survive for another half
    hour. Her "mercy-living" movement went to great
    trouble to house, wash and feed even the most hopeless
    and derelict, because of inherent respect for the
    "sanctity of life" of each individual.

    This attitude is summed up in her statement: "I see
    Jesus in every human being. I say to myself, this is
    hungry Jesus, I must feed him. This is sick Jesus.
    This one has leprosy or gangrene; I must wash him and
    tend to him. I serve because I love Jesus."

    Will America chose the "sanctity of life" concept as
    demonstrated by Mother Teresa, or will America chose
    the "quality of life" concept championed by
    self-proclaimed doctors of death – such as in the case
    of the court-ordered starvation of Terri Schiavo – and
    continue its slide toward Auschwitz? What kind of
    subtle anesthetic has been allowed to deaden our
    national conscience? What horrors await us? The
    question is not whether the suffering and dying
    person's life should be terminated; the question is
    what kind of nation will we become if they are. Their
    physical death is preceded only by our moral death.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

  • #2
    what this leaves out is that the euthanasia campaign was stopped, by outcries from German relatives of the physically challenged. This did NOT help the Jews, Roma, Poles etc.

    I dont much care for Singer, and am no fan of euthanasia, but I dont think this had much to do with anything. And i dont think euthanasia in this country, while it might (immorally) lead to pressure on old people to die, would lead to death camps for racial or religious minorities. Not all slippery slopes are equally slippery.
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

    Comment


    • #3


      Pure Bull**** if you want my opinion. The concept of "quality of life" that underlies the acceptance of abortion and euthanasia is not related to what an individual can bring to society, but to what he can expect from life himself.

      I don't know what the Weimarers were thinking at that time, and maybe your friend has a point in this precise historical context (my ignorance prevents me from making any judgement).

      But to confuse today's notion of euthanasia with the nazi inclination of precocious death is completely ignorant
      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

      Comment


      • #4
        There seems to be a flaw right at the beginning. Back then a "life unworthy of life" was meant to be "unworthy" in a social context, while today it's meant that euthanasia should be available to those who consider their lives themselves "unworthy". It's supposed to be a personal decision, not one made by others, as it was back then (also before the Nazis themselves). I share the worries about ways how people (greedy relatives) will try to abuse that, but it's not something meant to be controlled by the society. A step toward indiviualsim, not collectivism. Modern thought of euthanasia is more connected to ancient philosophies like the Epicureans who are everything but the root of Hegelianism.
        I rather share the fears that modern concepts of eugenetics are pointing in the same direction, when specialists even try to persuade future parents that they should abort, because the child will be disabled/retarded etc.
        "The world is too small in Vorarlberg". Austrian ex-vice-chancellor Hubert Gorbach in a letter to Alistar [sic] Darling, looking for a job...
        "Let me break this down for you, fresh from algebra II. A 95% chance to win 5 times means a (95*5) chance to win = 475% chance to win." Wiglaf, Court jester or hayseed, you judge.

        Comment


        • #5
          Actually, the whole slide downwards, was actually caused by the fact that Nazi Germany was a Radical Democracy. Iin fact the first cases of Euthanasia, it has been shown, actually resulted from frustrated parents wanting to get rid of their retarded children in a 'humane fashion'. Soon the whole bureaucratic machinery got in motion, and as the story goes' give the Devil a littlefinger and...'

          And one more thing regarding Nazi policies which sought to promote 'quality of life'. It is well known that the first concerted anti-tobacco campaigns were actually started through request by nazi doctors who saw the cancer as a corrupting the national body.

          Also the whole Joy through Strength campaign of giving all Germans the opportunity of going on cruise trips around the Baltic. Makes you think about the current cruise-ship craze going on. I mean I live in a habour city in Europe and the number of Americans who come in by cruise-ship is simply amazing.

          This points to what a Jewish philosopher like Zygmunt Baumann has pointed out. The whole Nazi horror is not exclusively a German lesson - it is a lesson in modernity itself.

          Comment


          • #6
            I see two subtle but dangerous propaganda methods this article exploits.

            One, it tries to use synonymously the doctrines that "quality of life is more important than 'sanctity' of life" and the that "the value of life is in its value to the state", two doctrines which it seems obvious to me at least couldn't have less to do with each other.

            Two, it uses the popular but ridiculous "The Nazis do it so it must be bad" argument. I've seen "The Nazis used gun control so it must be bad", "the Nazis repressed homosexuality so homosexuality must be okay", (either of these statements may be true, but this argument has certainly not established them) and a brilliant satire piece "proving" that vegetarianism was evil because Hitler was a vegetarian. Saying that the concentration camps used euthanasia and therefore euthanasia is bad is as silly as saying the concentration camps used tattoos and therefore tattoos should be banned - in one case it was done to the unwilling for evil reasons, and in the other, a person does it to themselves for reasons they consider to be good ones.

            In my humble opinion, the state prohibiting euthanasia is a much more dangerous slide into the state taking on the godlike role of deciding whether people can live or die than the state simply allowing people to do what they want.
            "Although I may disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to hear me tell you how wrong you are."

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks for posting the article, Ben. Food for thought without a doubt. The idea that Peter Singer is given an esteemed position at Princeton should cause people to shudder. The fact that so many applaud and justify him speaks volumns about how far we have slipped. And at the same time the pro-life people are ridiculed as "extremists."

              Comment


              • #8
                /me invokes Godwin's Law

                /me also disagrees with the idea that the two extremes are the only tenable positions on the spectrum
                Blog | Civ2 Scenario League | leo.petr at gmail.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by St Leo
                  * St Leo also disagrees with the idea that the two extremes are the only tenable positions on the spectrum
                  I don't think it is an extreme position to condemn the fallacy underlying the point of this article. To this article yesterday's (collectivist) perception of euthanasia and today's (individualistic) perception of euthanasia are the same.
                  "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                  "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                  "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Spiffor

                    I don't think it is an extreme position to condemn the fallacy underlying the point of this article. To this article yesterday's (collectivist) perception of euthanasia and today's (individualistic) perception of euthanasia are the same.
                    And equally the whole notion of dividing societies into collectivist and individualistic is a dangerous one, which blinds us from the facts at hand.

                    When has conservatism ever been individualistic, and did it ever occur to you that economic individualism is not the same as social individualism?

                    In fact the more people are forced to make ends meet by their exclusively own devices, the more you will probably see a call for social collectivism. That is a historical fact. Sure the German workers were thrown a few bones from the tables of big bussiness, but who died on the battlefield, while the generals were driving through various countrysides looking for castles in which to enjoy their retirement?

                    Of course if America was to turn into an economic collectivist state, then it would be a communist dictatorship. Turn it it into a social collectivist state, and you would have a capitalist dictatorship.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Tripledoc:
                      I did not divide societies among the line of individualistic / collectivist. I did however pinpoint the basic difference between yesterday's notion of euthanasia and today's notion.

                      Since I was comparing notions, I wonder where your comments about societies comes from ?
                      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The title alone reduces any argument in the original post to nothing but an obnoxious troll.

                        And I really hate agreeing with St Leo.
                        When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lincoln
                          The idea that Peter Singer is given an esteemed position at Princeton should cause people to shudder. The fact that so many applaud and justify him speaks volumns about how far we have slipped.
                          Their should be an ideological litmus test? In a private institution, no less?

                          And how many people really applaud and "justify" Singer? There's 280 million people in the US, and even if you discount those who haven't heard of him and don't give a damn, his position is one of many minority views.

                          And at the same time the pro-life people are ridiculed as "extremists."
                          Not all of them. And plenty of labeling is done on every side of this (and all other) issues.


                          Then again, blowing up clinics or sniping doctors or physically accosting pregnant women one wrongly assumes are attempting to obtain abortions because they're entering a medical building with two dozen doctors offices, one of whom provides abortions, are fairly "extreme" forms of advocacy, wouldn't you say?
                          When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Trump-Palin 2016. "You're fired." "I quit."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Can this holocaust happen in America? Indeed, it has
                            already begun. The idea of killing a person and
                            calling it "death with dignity" is an oxymoron.
                            The author is confusing euthenasia with the right to die, with the former, others make the decision, with the latter, the person suffering makes the decision. I suspect the confusion is intentional... Btw, euthenasia wasn't invented by the Nazis or the Weimar Republic, Thomas Jefferson spoke of euthenasia in one of his letters and he endorsed it in certain cases... Euthenasia is as old as humanity, no one wants to see a loved one die a slow and painful death and that sentiment is in competition with our natural selfish desire to keep the loved one around for our own happiness. If it's "humane" to put down a suffering animal, then it may be humane to do the same to a person. I doubt I'd have the courage but I'd be reluctant to condemn those who do have the courage...

                            The "mercy-killing" movement puts us on the same path as pre-Nazi Germany. The "quality of life" concept, which
                            eventually results in the Hegelian utilitarian
                            attitude of a person's worth being based on their
                            contribution toward perpetuating big government, is in
                            stark contrast to America's founding principles.
                            Again, the author has created strawmen, there is no "mercy killing" movement, just the right of self-determination - freedom. And this "right to die" movement is not about utility or worth to the state, but the individual who is suffering. Btw, the right to die movement is also driven in part by the drug war, the state's zealousness in making sure we don't get "addicted" has put pressure on medical professionals who specialise in pain management to show restraint when medicating people in pain and many Americans are coming to realise that if they ever end up in a bad situation, their doctors may not be willing to help ease their pain sufficiently. That was what drove the referendum in Arizona a few years back, a state with a larg percentage of retirees. The voters overwhelmingly told the politicians they didn't want the state interfering with the doctor- patient relationship when it comes to pain management...

                            The Associated Press reported Singer's comments: "For me, the relevant question is, what makes it so seriously wrong to take a life?" Singer asked. "Those of you who are not
                            vegetarians are responsible for taking a life every
                            time you eat. Species is no more relevant than race in
                            making these judgments."
                            Vegetables don't count as life? If species aren't more relevant than race, what about plant species. Ah yes, a vegetarian is a person too insensitive to hear a carrot scream.

                            President Theodore
                            Roosevelt's warning in 1909 seems appropriate:

                            "Progress has brought us both unbounded opportunities
                            and unbridled difficulties. Thus, the measure of our
                            civilization will not be that we have done much, but
                            what we have done with that much. I believe that the
                            next half century will determine if we will advance
                            the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the
                            horrors of brutal paganism. The thought of modern
                            industry in the hands of Christian charity is a dream
                            worth dreaming. The thought of industry in the hands
                            of paganism is a nightmare beyond imagining. The
                            choice between the two is upon us."
                            Ah, Teddy "I didn't really ride up San Juan Hill" Roosevelt. How does he explain the brutality of Christian Europe? Sorry Teddy, but I don't see the history of Christianity as an improvement upon the history of paganism. If anything, the more organised a religion becomes, the greater the evil it can perpetrate.

                            Finally, justifying their actions on the purported
                            theory of evolution, the Nazis considered the German,
                            or "Aryan," race as "ubermenschen," supermen, being
                            more advanced in the supposed progress of human
                            evolution.
                            Well, I was waiting for the author to get around to this bugaboo. Racism, the belief that one's race is superior to others, was not invented by Darwin or the Nazis. It too is as old as humanity and actually quite "natural" in that it stems from a fear of the unknown, distrust of the unfamiliar.

                            In biblical comparison, Jesus showed mercy by healing
                            the sick and giving sanity back to the deranged, but
                            never did he kill them.
                            Only if life were that simple, but hospitals are filled with people we can't heal.

                            This attitude is exemplified
                            today by Mother Teresa of Calcutta, whose version of
                            "death with dignity" was to gather the dying from off
                            the street and show compassion to these rejected and
                            abandoned members of the human race, all the while
                            knowing that they may only survive for another half
                            hour. Her "mercy-living" movement went to great
                            trouble to house, wash and feed even the most hopeless
                            and derelict, because of inherent respect for the
                            "sanctity of life" of each individual.
                            And what if I appeared on her doorstep with one wish - to die because my pain was unbearable - would it be compassionate for her to refuse me my wish?

                            Will America chose the "sanctity of life" concept as
                            demonstrated by Mother Teresa, or will America chose
                            the "quality of life" concept championed by
                            self-proclaimed doctors of death – such as in the case
                            of the court-ordered starvation of Terri Schiavo – and
                            continue its slide toward Auschwitz?
                            Didn't the court conclude the evidence showed she didn't want to exist that way? That starvation is a result of those who oppose euthenasia, ironic, huh? I'd like to see her released to her parents but if she left a living will asking not to be kept alive for the sake of being kept alive, that desire must take priority over my wishes and the wishes of her parents. On the other hand, when people say "I wouldn't want to live like that", are they really serious or just affected by an unsavory image? Well, we all should think about what can happen and make our decision legally binding.

                            The
                            question is not whether the suffering and dying
                            person's life should be terminated; the question is
                            what kind of nation will we become if they are. Their
                            physical death is preceded only by our moral death.
                            Interesting comment!!! The author goes from condemning "utility" to advocating..... UTILITY! The author says it's not about the individual, but about us and our "nation"al
                            "morality". Sorry, but you cannot convince me it is moral to insist that a person dying from a painful and lethal disease not have a voice in what happens to them. The author condemns euthenasia because it removes from the patient decisions about their life and advocates doing what? Removing the individual from the decision making process... Nice...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
                              Then again, blowing up clinics or sniping doctors or physically accosting pregnant women one wrongly assumes are attempting to obtain abortions because they're entering a medical building with two dozen doctors offices, one of whom provides abortions, are fairly "extreme" forms of advocacy, wouldn't you say?
                              You know it is all for the sanctity of life
                              "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                              "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                              "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X