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**Nubclear** · October 3, 2003, 01:06

Sick bastard...

**MichaeltheGreat** · October 3, 2003, 01:15

Of course, this begs the question as to how accurate the site's representation of the "facts" are.

Given that there was a trial, several appeals, and there has been for the last ten years the avenue of going to court (on the basis of conflict of interest, among others) to seek an independent trust administrator accountable to the court), there is a pretty substantial amount of medical expert and treating physician testimony on file.

The truth is much more likely to be found there, rather than on a website with either party's axes to grind.

**The Mad Monk** · October 3, 2003, 01:54

That is quite true, which is why I noted the afiliation of the site.

Here is an article posted by worldrtd.org:

ST. PETERSBURG TIMES (FL) (March 7, 2001, page 3B

Schiavo to ask judge to let wife die soon
ANITA KUMAR

A court has ruled that Michael Schiavo can remove his wife's feeding tube after her parents' appeals are exhausted.

First, Terri Schiavo's husband got a court order to remove her feeding tube. Now, he wants to get permission to take it out sooner - rather than later.

Michael Schiavo will ask a Pinellas judge this month if he can remove her life support before her parents' appeals have been exhausted, further complicating the St. Petersburg right -to- die case that has garnered national publicity.

"It's appropriate to have the judge take another look at the issue," said George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney.

But an attorney for her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, said Tuesday that removing the tube now would only cause further pain for her family. "I am surprised that he would do this," said Joseph Magri upon hearing the news. "For him to run to the judge now is unconscionable."

The Schindlers, who have been feuding with Michael Schiavo since 1993, are vehemently opposed to removing the tube at all, saying she would starve to death.

Mrs. Schiavo, who has spent 11 years in a persistent vegetative state, would die one to two weeks after her tube was removed from a chemical imbalance in her blood, her doctors say.

After an emotional trial, Pinellas-Pasco Circuit Judge George Greer ruled last year that Schiavo could remove the tube 30 days after all of Mrs. Schiavo's parents' appeals have been exhausted.

That hasn't happened yet. But Schiavo is asking the judge to move up the date now that the 2nd District Court of Appeal in Lakeland has upheld Greer's ruling to discontinue support. The court, which agreed with Michael Schiavo that Mrs. Schiavo would not want her life extended by a feeding tube, reaffirmed its decision last month.

A hearing on the request to remove the stay will be held in front of Greer on March 22. The judge declined to comment.

Felos said both sides agreed last year that Schiavo retained the right to ask Greer to change the date. Magri disagreed, though he did say that Felos has a legal right to ask the judge to do so.

The Schindlers plan to ask the Florida Supreme Court to consider taking the case later this month. Felos said the state Supreme Court does not have to hear the case and will only do so if the justices know of a specific reason they should.

Mrs. Schiavo, now 37, collapsed at her St. Petersburg home Feb. 25, 1990. Her heart stopped beating, and she was deprived of oxygen for five minutes.

Doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state - unaware of what is happening around her and that her motions and sounds are based on reflex only - and will never improve. But her parents dispute that, saying she responds to sounds and sights.

The Schindlers and Schiavo have accused each other of trying to control Mrs. Schiavo's fate to get $700,000 she received in 1993 from a malpractice suit.

Schiavo and Felos said they have offered five times to donate to charity the $700,000 he stood to inherit upon her death if only the Schindlers would allow removal of her feeding tube. Each time, they have rejected the offer. The Schindlers say that Schiavo never made that offer five times and when he did, it was insincere.

Schiavo moved his wife from a Largo nursing home to a facility run by Hospice of the Florida Suncoast last April after her longtime nursing home became uncomfortable with the publicity the case generated.

World Federation of Right to Die Societies: Death With Dignity, Aid in Dying, Hastened Death, Physician Assisted Suicide, Euthanasia, End of Life

http://www.worldrtd.org/floridaPVS.html

The World Federation, comprised of 38 member societies, works to ensure that individuals have the right to make their own choices as to the manner and timing of their death.

**The Mad Monk** · October 3, 2003, 01:57

Here is a Hannity & Colmes interview involving both sides. It has benn "edited for clarity":

Friday, August 15, 2003

This is a partial transcript from Hannity & Colmes, August, 13 2003 that has been edited for clarity. Click here to order a transcript of the entire show.

ALAN COLMES, HOST: Terry Schindler Schiavo suffered brain damage more than a decade ago and a Florida court has ruled that she is in a persistent vegetative state (search).

Her husband Michael wants her removed from life support, but her parents have been fighting for years to keep that from happening. The Florida appeals court has ruled against the parents. They're now trying to convince the Florida Supreme Court (search) to hear a final appeal.

We'll hear from Michael Schiavo's attorney in a few minutes. First, joining us now is Terry's father, Robert Schindler, also Terry's sister, Susan Carr.

We thank you both very much for being with us.

ROBERT SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRY SCHIAVO: Thank you.

COLMES: Mr. Schindler, let me go to you first. Why are you opposing Michael's wishes on this, who claims, I guess, that what he is doing is in his wife's…would be in her wishes.

SCHINDLER: Well, actually, they're not Terry's wishes. They're fabricated wishes. The bulk of her family and her friends have come out and said Terry never ever made these type of wishes.

And the court decision was predicated on him saying that Terry did these wishes and his brother and his sister-in-law. So they're really bogus wishes.

COLMES: Why would he be making these bogus claims?

SCHINDLER: Well, there was a motivation initially that there was an award of close to $1.6 million that was put in Terry's medical trust fund. And if Terry would have died, he inherits all that money.

COLMES: You're claiming he's doing this for crass financial reasons? That is his sole motivation? Doesn't care about the well-being of his wife and is purely in this to get money?

SCHINDLER: Well, the videos that you're looking at now and I saw on your screen depicts a girl that's been totally abandoned for the past 12 years. And that's what happens when someone has brain damage and they're not treated. And Terry's never been treated. The past three years she's been in solitary confinement.

COLMES: Susan, let me bring you in here. You know that a court has ruled and a panel in addition to that court, I guess, has ruled that, you know, they've done everything they could do and that they don't feel…a judge ruled that there would be additional medical treatment that could help.

How do you respond to what the court said about this?

SUSAN CARR, SISTER ON LIFE SUPPORT: Well, you know, we have more than 13 doctors that have come on affidavits that say that Terry can be helped. And the courts have ignored that. And other evidence that shows that Terry is not in the condition that has been misrepresented.

SEAN HANNITY, HOST: All right. Let me go to both of you here. And I'm very sorry that this has happened. It's a tragic situation.

If the Florida appeals court ruled against you, Robert, correct, as we've been saying.

SCHINDLER: That's correct.

HANNITY: And you're trying to convince the Florida Supreme Court. I want to show this video. This is the balloon video, and you're saying this proves that she's following the balloon and that this proves that she's alive. She's aware. She's conscious, isn't that what…the case you're making?

SCHINDLER: What the balloon does, Terry, when we visit her. I mean, she just beams like a Christmas tree. And she interacts with us. She's trying to talk. We have a speech pathologist that's on record saying she's trying to talk. And it seems everybody can see that Terry is reacting, with the exception of the court system.

HANNITY: Yes. Let me show another video here. Because I think this is very important. I mean, why aren't they…you know, let's go on the side of caution here. I want to show the tape of your mom, and this is it here. This is your mother and she's obviously. I've seen this video. Seems to me she's obviously reacting to her here.

SCHINDLER: Well, when she sees her mother. There's just a distinct look of pleasure comes on her face. And then she'll start…she tries to talk. And it's incredible. I mean, she's actually trying to communicate.

HANNITY: Susan…go ahead.

SCHINDLER: No, I say, unfortunately, she hasn't had any kind of therapy. She hasn't been helped. And that's the end product of someone that's been abandoned for all those years. It's just tragic.

HANNITY: Susan, do you think they're trying to kill your sister?

CARR: Absolutely. You know, Terry is merely a disabled woman that needs aggressive therapy to get better. Keep in mind, Terry could be here today, she could be sitting next to me. She doesn't have to stay in that room.

HANNITY: And you think it's for money?

CARR: Well, I mean, initially the motivation was money, but I don't know how much money is left since most of it has gone to his attorney.

COLMES: We wish her well. We hope that this has a happy ending. We thank you both very much for being with us.

SCHINDLER: No problem.

COLMES: Robert Schindler, Susan Carr, thank you.

HANNITY: Joining us now for the other side of this story, Michael Schiavo's attorney, author of Litigation: A Spiritual Practice. George Felos is with us.

George, well, you heard everything that was just head said here. When I look at that video, I see life in that woman.

GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: Well, Terry Schiavo is alive. There's absolutely no doubt about that.

She's in a vegetative condition, which means she has sleep cycles, she has wake cycles. Her body can respond to the environment, but she has no consciousness. And that's not me saying this. We've had two trials over 5 1/2 years of litigation, a trial judge and panels of appellate court that said the same thing.

HANNITY: All right. If that's the case and he doesn't want this to happen, and he wants to be done with this in the sense that he wants to pull off the life support. And the parents and the sister want it, why wouldn't he at least give them that wish and if they want to take care of her now and they want to take over the medical care of her, why can't they just say, ‘OK, this is important to you, I disagree but if it's important to you, it's your daughter. It's your sister, I loved her once. Let me give her to you.’

Why doesn't he just have the graciousness to do that for them?

FELOS: He didn't love her once, he loves her now. And the thing is this case is not about the parents' wishes or the husband's wishes. It's about Terry's wish. She has the right, even though she's incapacitated, to make her own treatment decisions.

HANNITY: But do you have any evidence she wanted this?

FELOS: Terry Schiavo said if she ever had to be dependent on the care of others, she wouldn't want to remain.

HANNITY: Did she say it in writing?

FELOS: Not in writing. She said, ‘No tubes for me.’ She said, ‘I don't want to stay alive artificially.’ But that's not me saying that. The court found that those were her wishes by clear and convincing evidence.

COLMES: It's Alan Colmes. Let me ask you about the charges that your client is in this for the money. You heard that charge being made just a few moments ago. Can you address that, please?

FELOS: It's just preposterous. When there was money, my client offered to donate it to charity to end this case. And there is no money. My client won't receive a penny as a result of Terry's death.

I mean, he has been in this case because he's a husband who said to his wife when his wife said, ‘Honey, please don't let me live that way, promise me,’ he's been keeping his promise. And at a great price.

COLMES: Well, the parents are saying that those were not her wishes. Her parents are saying that it's not what she wanted. So how do you prove that it was?

FELOS: Well, that's what we have courts for and that's what we have trials. We had an independent person, a judge, listen to our witnesses, listen to their witnesses, and this is the judge's conclusion.

The Schindlers have had an opportunity to present their doctors and we've presented our doctors. And the courts found beyond any doubt whatsoever that Terry is in a vegetative state.

COLMES: Why not err on the side of life and on the side of the possibility that some miracle could take place?

FELOS: Well, I'm all in favor of miracles but if you take the position that a miracle could take place at anytime then everyone would have to be hooked up to life support and medical treatment against their wishes.

COLMES: But if the family, like the parents, are willing to support her, are willing to take care of her, and you never know what can happen, stranger things have happened, why not err on that side, the side of life over death?

FELOS: Because we have a right to refuse medical treatment. Just because there's a treatment out there that can be applied to us, it doesn't mean we have to have it.

And this case is not about her parent’s ideology. They may want it for themselves, but that's not what Terry wanted. And we have a duty and her husband has a duty to have these wishes carried out.

HANNITY: All right. Well, I find myself in agreement with Alan. Err on the side of life in this particular case. Appreciate you being with us. Thank you for your time.

FELOS: Or condemn somebody to a life that they chose not to live.

HANNITY: You never know. Miracles can happen. I mean, I believe in them. Thank you, Mr. Felos.

Click here to order the entire transcript of the show.

Copy: Content and Programming Copyright 2003 Fox News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2003 eMediaMillWorks, Inc. (f/k/a Federal Document Clearing House, Inc.), which takes sole responsibility for the accuracy of the transcription. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material except for the user's personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon Fox News Network, Inc.'s and eMediaMillWorks, Inc.'s copyrights or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

404 | Fox News

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,94748,00.html

**The Mad Monk** · October 3, 2003, 02:03

One more, from CNSNews:

Disabled Woman's Family, Former Nurses Seek Inquiry
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Congressional Bureau Chief
September 10, 2003

Capitol Hill (CNSNews.com) - Supporters of a disabled Florida woman embroiled in a euthanasia battle with her husband called Wednesday for a criminal investigation into the husband's alleged abuse of his incapacitated wife.

The request comes just days after three of Terri Schindler Schiavo's former caregivers submitted sworn affidavits detailing a years-long history of denied medical care, altered or destroyed medical records, and alleged attempts by Michael Schiavo to kill his wife.

Schiavo has repeatedly denied the allegations, as has his attorney, George Felos.

Felos was quoted in the Tampa Tribune as saying that claims of abuse by the former caregivers are "a bunch of garbage." Although he did acknowledge that Schiavo was often overbearing with Terri's nurses, he claimed the behavior was an attempt to obtain "the best care for her."

Felos also disputed claims that Terri had communicated with her nurses. "It didn't happen," Felos told the newspaper. "It's a fabrication."

But the denials haven't stopped efforts to dig deeper into the case. "A group of concerned citizens have put together a formal request to the state's attorney, Bernie McCabe, asking him to investigate allegations of abuse upon Terri Schindler Schiavo by her husband, Michael Schiavo," said Pamela Hennessy, spokeswoman for the Schindler family.

Based on affidavits included with a federal lawsuit filed by the Schindlers on Aug. 30, Schiavo has allegedly forbidden medical professionals to provide his wife with any therapy or rehabilitation and has allegedly even attempted to cause her death.

As the result of a brain injury she suffered in 1990 under questionable circumstances, complicated by a lack of therapy for more than a decade, Terri has required nutrition and hydration through a gastrostomy or "feeding tube."

The woman has not had a guardian ad-litem for most of the time she has been disabled because the judge with jurisdiction over probate matters in her county ruled that Terri's sole legal guardian, her husband, is qualified to determine what is in her best interest.

But Schiavo began withholding nutrition and hydration shortly after winning $1.2 million on her behalf in a medical malpractice lawsuit. Since receiving the money, Schiavo has provided only subsistence care for his wife.

Terri's parents have been trying to obtain guardianship and provide their daughter with rehabilitative therapy that medical professionals have said will allow her to "improve significantly."

Allegations prompt call for criminal probe into suspected abuse

One particular allegation that was "very disturbing" to Hennessy and prompted the request for a criminal investigation was lodged by Carla Sauer Iyer, a registered nurse who cared for Terri from about April of 1995 until August of 1996.

Iyer alleged that Terri's blood sugar levels were normally "very stable due to the uniformity of her diet." While she suspects Schiavo of injecting Terri with regular insulin to drive her into hypoglycemic shock, she acknowledged that she has no proof.

"She noted at least five times when Michael Schiavo would come to visit Terri, close the door to her room and then emerge sometime later and leave," Hennessy related. "On those occasions, Iyer had tested Terri's blood sugar, and the level was so low it wasn't even registering, she would administer dextrose to get Terri...out of danger."

Iyer's affidavit detailed the alleged incidents.

"Terri would be trembling, crying hysterically and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar," Iyer recalled. "The glucometer reading would be so low that it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading."

Iyer and the other caregivers recalled numerous occasions when they would record information in Terri's medical charts or patient logs indicating that she was alert and responsive, speaking to them, laughing at jokes or funny stories, and complying with simple instructions.

Those records, they allege, were deleted from the files and, in some cases, were later seen in trashcans at nursing stations.

Hennessy said the letter requesting the investigation was delivered to McCabe Tuesday. An unidentified McCabe staff member told CNSNews.com late Wednesday that "I have been advised that we did not receive anything."

Motion to disqualify alleges judge talked to reporters, others about case

Terri's parents also want Pinellas-Pasco Florida Circuit Judge George Greer removed from their daughter's case. Attorneys for Robert and Mary Schindler filed a motion to disqualify Greer for alleged violations of the Florida Code of Judicial Conduct. Greer has reportedly denied that motion, but his decision is expected to be appealed.

"There is a motion to disqualify, based on evidence that Judge Greer is discussing this case with his colleagues and also the media," Hennessy said. "He is not to do that without litigating attorneys present."

The Schindlers' lead attorney, Pat Anderson, claims Greer talked to reporters about the case after a teleconference between the judge and attorneys for both parties ended on Tuesday, Aug. 26.

"On Wednesday or Thursday, I learned from a local reporter that, in fact, the reporters stayed in Judge Greer's chambers after the conclusion of the telephonic hearing for some period of time, asking him questions and recording his responses," Anderson charged. "It is my firm conviction that Judge Greer, in effect, held an impromptu press conference about the merits of the case pending before him without counsel for the parties being present."

Anderson referenced testimony from other individuals, corroborating her accusation that Greer had discussed the case with reporters, colleagues and elected officials outside his office, in alleged violation of the Florida Canons of Judicial Conduct.

"It is my belief that Judge Greer is no longer possessed of the cold, impartial neutrality that the Canons require of any judge," Anderson wrote in her affidavit supporting the motion.

Hennessy said she had received word Wednesday that Greer had rejected the motion to disqualify himself from the case. But that is not the end of the request.

"There are gatekeepers in place," Hennessy said. "I'm not certain how the attorneys would need to proceed in order to do that."

See Earlier Story:
Disabled Woman Would Cry 'Help Me,' Caregivers Claim (Sept. 03, 2003)

404 Not Found

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200309/CUL20030910c.html

**Gatekeeper** · October 3, 2003, 02:19

Simple. Ask Terri Schindler Schiavo if she wishes to live or die. One way or another, it should be her decision and no one else's.

**The Mad Monk** · October 3, 2003, 02:36

We have a disagreement on her answer.

**Gatekeeper** · October 3, 2003, 02:39

Oh? Hmm ... I must have missed it when scanning the articles. Well, heck, I don't know what to do then. How's that for honesty?

**Ben Kenobi** · October 3, 2003, 02:52

We have a disagreement on her answer.

Then we don't kill. If you shoot a gun at something that looks like a deer, you make sure before you shoot that you really have a deer.

Same with this. Ambiguity can only inspire caution, not action.

**The Mad Monk** · October 3, 2003, 10:28

I would agree with that.

**OneFootInTheGrave** · October 3, 2003, 11:05

Euthanise yourself all you like... just make sure that someone else doesn't euthanise you...

**Sava** · October 3, 2003, 11:12

As a principle, euthenasia is fine as long as you have consent. Due to the unknown nature of consent on the part of the victim, I think more time should pass before making such a decision.

MadMonk: Don't quote from Fox or Hannity and Colmes. We want the real story, not distortions.

**OneFootInTheGrave** · October 3, 2003, 11:17

Originally posted by Sava
As a principle, euthenasia is fine as long as you have consent. Due to the unknown nature of consent on the part of the victim, I think more time should pass before making such a decision.

MadMonk: Don't quote from Fox or Hannity and Colmes. We want the real story, not distortions.

There should be a littel office for euthanasia where the approval is given by the medical authority for euthanasia, that + persons/family consent should be enough.

**St Leo** · October 3, 2003, 20:04

Uhm, euthanasia by starvation is completely unethical. The whole point is for it to be a *less painful* option.

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Euthanasia: What Would You Decide?

Euthanasia: What Would You Decide?

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