Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Redemptive Hallucinations

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Redemptive Hallucinations

    I don't know how to begin this, or even what exactly I'm trying to say, but I've noticed a lot of posts attacking Christianity on the grounds that it consists of a supposedly loving God damning people to eternal suffering for their errors. That isn't technically a strawman, because strawmen are usually erected by their attackers, and the idea is pretty much common belief in many Christian churches today. It just happens to be a completely inaccurate and absurd common belief. No, this isn't another Orthodoxy-is-Great post, because there are people in just about every branch of the faith who have a halfway reasonable idea of how redemption is supposed to actually work. The more popular delusions are simply the result of several centuries of increasing theological ignorance.
    So far as I can tell, there are two popular but nonsensical views of salvation. The first is popular among evangelicals like Chick and seems to be based on the concept of salvation through faith. Under this system, Heaven is something like a divine mob protection scheme, or a gang membership. Come judgment day, Jesus is going to bust the cap of damnation in the collective rears of humanity, with the exception of his designated holy homeys, who signed up to be part of his crew, took the membership oath, and support the group by giving cash to guys on TV with bad suits and excessive hair-gel. Provided you are on the ok list, all your sins are redeemed. Aside from not making a lick of sense, this whole scheme is very reminiscent of the Mark of the Beast, and makes you wonder how exactly the road to salvation is supposed to be as hard as the Book of Matthew makes it out to be. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to spout some babble about accepting Jesus as his personal savior and get in on the outfit. Um, no.
    Then there's the even more popular works-based fallacy seen in Dante's Inferno(I really hate that book!), in which the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto an income-tax form. Come Judgment Day, God will measure each man's sins, make deductions for every sacrament he has taken part in, give credits for helping old ladies cross the street, and add all the numbers up and see if the balance is positive or negative. Thankfully, we can all clean up our credit history via confession. I don't know why exactly the king of glory who knows the hearts of men is required to add up numbers like a calculator to determine their worth, and if so why he was so harsh on the Pharisees for showing good fiscal sense.
    They are both popular conceptions of heaven, and both pretty much completely wrong. The classical Christian sense of virtue is a measure of how the actions of human beings change their hearts for better or worse over the long run, not a matter of physical consequences or legalistic obedience. The people in Hell aren't supposed to be the guys who didn't quite make the grade. They're the folks whose behavior in life gradually turned them into something that wasn't really human at all. The proud, the vain, the selfish, the cruel, people more concerned with being better than those around them than with being in a good way at all. The damned are those who freely chose to become thin parodies of what they were and ought to have been. That's why the Gospels say, "I was hungry and you gave me no food, thirsty and you gave me no drink..." rather than, "you didn't give enough food, you were stingy with your water, you only visited the sick three times in your whole life..." It's not the actions themselves that are important, it's why you do them and what they make you into. Apparently all the Pharisee-whooping passages didn't make that clear enough.
    Hopefully this will at least lower the ignorant comments for a little while. Anybody else have anything to add?
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    While one may be asked certain questions at the Pearlies, I've been assured that acceptance of God earns you a pass to the Amusement Park of amusement parks.

    Just have to have faith.
    Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
    "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
    He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

    Comment


    • #3
      Here's mine and my church's position on this.

      As we can read, Lucifer(Satan) rebelled against God, and took away 1/3 of the hosts of heaven. As we are here on the Earth, we are obviously part of the 2/3 who sided with God.

      No one here will go to 'Hell' (Outer Darkness) except the Sons of Perdition - those who have a perfect knowledge of Christ/His Gospel, and deny Him. The rest will go to Heaven.

      Heaven itself consists of 3 degrees of Glory; we shall be judged and inherit one of these.

      Comment


      • #4
        Are you Mormon, Verto?

        ACK!
        Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust!

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, he is.
          Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
          "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
          He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

          Comment


          • #6
            I knew that seemed familiar.

            ACK!
            Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust!

            Comment


            • #7
              As I said in Asher's fake "Religion" thread, if you've accepted God, it's a slam-dunk.
              No worries, all is well.


              Goooooo Methodists!
              Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
              "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
              He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

              Comment


              • #8
                Elok - that's an excellent description of what it's all about. People complain about people being sent to hell, but those would go to 'hell' are basically people who would hate heaven, really. People who's prespective is not one generosity or imagination.

                I personally don't believe in hell at all, but hey, that's me!
                "mono has crazy flow and can rhyme words that shouldn't, like Eminem"
                Drake Tungsten
                "get contacts, get a haircut, get better clothes, and lose some weight"
                Albert Speer

                Comment


                • #9
                  What does it mean to accept God, Sloww?
                  Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                  "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks for your post Elok. I think that pretty much sums it up. Hell will be full of religious folks who do as the Pharisees did.

                    Mt:23:12: And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
                    Mt:23:13: But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
                    Mt:23:14: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
                    Mt:23:15: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
                    Mt:23:16: Woe unto you, ye blind guides...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The kingdom of heaven is made up of peacemakers, mourners, the merciful, the poor in spirit, the persecuted and those who stuck by their guns despite persecution. Thus sayeth Matthew 5.

                      Did anyone see the movie "What Dreams May Come"? The movie portrays heaven as a sort of persistance of a person's best dreams. The main character wakes up inside a beautifuul landscape he had once painted. He later meets up with his young daughter, who had died tragically, inside a colorful pop-up which he had given her before she died. He meets the people he once knew in life in personae they chose for themselves after death. His wife, who committed suicide after their children's deaths, is imprisoned in a chaotic dungeon fashioned by her own tortured soul. Eventually he is able to free her.
                      "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Then there's the even more popular works-based fallacy seen in Dante's Inferno(I really hate that book!)
                        It's a great book and one of the few based on much earlier Greek cosmogony (thru Virgil the Roman) which in turn undoubtedly derives from even earlier sources like the Egyptians, Babylonians, and, ultimately, the Sumerians. Read Dante as a celestial journey and you won't need "faith" to believe in God...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SlowwHand
                          As I said in Asher's fake "Religion" thread, if you've accepted God, it's a slam-dunk.
                          No worries, all is well.


                          Goooooo Methodists!

                          A lot of Republicans are not racist, but a lot of racists are Republican.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What does it mean to accept God, Sloww?
                            Vesayen:

                            Good question, I think I can answer for Slowwy since Methodists are not too distant from Mennonites, both can be evangelical.

                            The way my church does this is to ask the congregation at the end of the service if there is anyone who has not accepted Christ, confessing that Christ is the son of God, and has died on the cross to redeem our sins.

                            If someone raises their hand, my pastor prays, and the confessor repeats each section of the prayer.
                            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The way my church does this is to ask the congregation at the end of the service if there is anyone who has not accepted Christ, confessing that Christ is the son of God, and has died on the cross to redeem our sins.

                              If someone raises their hand, my pastor prays, and the confessor repeats each section of the prayer.
                              LOL...
                              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X