What is Human?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Lincoln
Well Fun, I am glad that you see the difference. Unfortunately some do not know where to draw the line and they extend the concept of "choice" one step further. If choice trumps the rights of the unborn because they hinder the mother's lifestyle then why stop when the baby is born? The concept of choice marches on without you anyway.

The concept of choice -- within mainstream advocacy -- does not state that babies and infants are inhuman.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what's the difference Mr. Fun?

6 inches from the womb to the world?

[Ben Kenobi]

basically every person is a different person than the person who went by the same name and had many of the same moeculeswho inhabited the space he is currently in a moment ago (we won't go into what a moment is)

Jon:

I had hoped Agathon would be able to provide a better rebuttal, but you will have to do with me.

You are right, in that if a person is merely a collection of molecules, that from one moment to the next, they would become an entirely different person. The answer then lies in the first portion of your statement.

Is a person merely a collection of molecules? There are a number of terms for this position, the most common being a reductionist view of humanity.

Now, there are several problems with this perspective, in that it fails to adequately account for personal identity. You do not change from one day to the next, though your body changes, you are still the same Jon Miller from the day you are born to the day that you die. Physically you may change, but your essence does not.

Now, this is where I need Agathon's help. I'm not that familiar with Aristotle's arguments about forms. This is where we come across the argument that people are much more than just the sum of their parts.

[Jon Miller]

you are missing my point

I am sorry I put the molecle bit im there

just think about conciousness

Jon Miller

[Q Classic]

if you're human, you realize the world would be better off without your species, and therefore support VHEMT.

otherwise, you're just a viral parasite.

[Elok]

This is one of those questions whose best answer is, "why do we care?" What you are proposing is a different view of the model of reality we all accept, phrased to be more difficult to understand. Since, as human beings, we think in terms of the present, the future as far as we are concerned does not literally exist; define existence, if you can, as anything other than the essential state of being an aspect of the *present*. The future is abstract for a reason, and until we develop time travel, which I don't believe we ever will, it doesn't matter. Not trying to put you down, it just doesn't.
And just to contribute to the most interesting of this thread's several jacks, I challenge any programmer out there to develop software that can reliably answer threads like, say, St. Swithin. Betcha can't!

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So what's the difference Mr. Fun?

6 inches from the womb to the world?

No, the different stages of development, smart*ss.

[SKILORD]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
you are missing my point

I am sorry I put the molecle bit im there

just think about conciousness

Jon Miller

Dude, how many OT posts do I have to make before people respond to me, rather than simply making disparaging comments regarding my Avatar?

:sigh:

[Jon Miller]

what I meant is that I didn't mean to refer to molecules

if you think about it, after doing something you (your consciousness) is sort of different than before

that is what I meant

Jon Miller

[SKILORD]

Thought you were talking to the esteemed Kenobi, sorry if you were referring to me. :gasp: Disproves my 'None of them are human, they are programmed to ignore me' theory.

Unless you didn't actually read my post and simply commented based on where I quoted you, in which case you aren't reading now, (so :nannnynannnypthoopthoo:, Canada sucks.)

If you were reading that I apologise, Canada is a fine nation.

Back to the matter at hand, My arguments were never made against your view of humanity as a collection of particles, mine didn't attack your philosophy at all but rather labeled it as a bleak view of the world in which you cannot even trust yourself (but.... he's not yourself, reread this in case the moth******er who was you before you made you read it wrong, or maybe something got lost in the transfer. Get my point?) The way you propose to live life therefore is to conceive of ways to manipulate future versions of yourself, this seems awfully petty to be doing but then again you are inherintly a petty person who exists only right now.... better get rereading again*.

It also alleiviates you from the guilt from any transgression a past version of you committed, meaning that it is immoral to incarcerate someone for the sins of his former versions, your philosophy has a lot of flaws, none of them pertaining to physicists view of humanity.


*-In case you have been purged of this particular memory by a former version I propose that you look up 2 lines from the star.

[Japher]

John Miller, that is something to think about. What if human conscience was non-mutable, but merely replaced...

Reminds me of "Sliders"

What is human?

The ability to change and adapt readily to situations in a cognative manner, is one aspect... Isn't it?

[Snotty]

Jon, Outside effects will always affect you against your will. The offhand comment that makes you paranoid, or anything more serious. You can try to minimize the effect the outside world has on you, but by doing this you limit your chance for experience, good and bad. You cant just live in a fireproof room.

[Jon Miller]

this has nothing to do with physics or science

in fact, I beleive that it is currently outside of the realm of science (but may soon not be as neurology advances)

Jon Miller

[tinyp3nis]

Originally posted by Agathon


But the same goes for a child. You have to teach it language first.

The word "make" is doing too much undefined work in that sentence.

I have sometimes wondered if the state of a child is _the only_ time when humans can come up with something new and not just repeat things like computers do.

[Ben Kenobi]

No, the different stages of development,

Have your reached the peak of your development, Mr Fun?