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  • #91
    Arafat has apparently tapped parliament speaker Ahmed Qureia as new PM. The Fatah leadership has already confirmed the nomination.
    'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
    G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"

    Comment


    • #92
      Looks like peace will be set back at least several years (due to the inevitable Israeli invasion). What worries me is that every year longer the occupation lasts, the more the occupied territories will be dominated by Palestinians who have no memory of living side by side with Israelis; the only interaction the youngest generations have had with Israelis, have been with occupying soldiers and settlers, which makes a lasting peace that much harder to acheive.
      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
      -Bokonon

      Comment


      • #93
        Abbas Exit Turns Page to Fresh Palestinian Violence
        ************************************************** *

        DEBKAfile Special Analysis


        It took Yasser Arafat 100 days to knock over the linchpin of the
        Aqaba peace strategy plotted by US President George W. Bush and
        Israeli premier Ariel Sharon at the Jordanian Red Sea resort; Abu
        Mazen aka Mahmoud Abbas submitted his resignation as Palestinian
        prime minister on Saturday, September 6, for lack of any other option.

        Arafat's blow was a double-headed one, striking at two key sections
        of the Bush administration's master-plan: the Palestinian-Israeli
        conflict and Iraq.

        The statistics of the ill-fated Abu Mazen experiment are horrendous -
        in 88 days from the June 6 Aqaba summit up until Saturday September
        6, 64 Israelis were murdered by Palestinian terrorists and more than
        1,000 wounded, i.e. 0.7 dead and more than 10 injured victims per
        day. It is hard to imagine any government continuing to base its
        policies - especially one that declares the security of its citizens
        paramount - on the regular slaughter of its citizens day after day by
        a declared enemy. This state of affairs is not a matter of political
        viewpoint. Placing the home front in harm's way makes the battle
        front more vulnerable. When the enemy is permitted to strike at will
        at civilian towns and villages, it means the front line is wide open
        and national defenses are in tatters.

        This lesson the Americans first understood on September 11.

        In Iraq, the statistics begin on May 1, when President Bush declared
        the combat phase of the Iraq War at an end. Since then, 65 Americans
        have died in enemy attacks, i.e. 0.6 per day in 118 days.

        The Americans now admit that the anti-US resistance in Iraq is not
        confined to Saddam loyalists, but is an orchestrated Arab-Muslim
        guerrilla campaign sustained by a stream of foreign fighters mostly
        from Syria and Iran and including a heavy influx of al Qaeda
        terrorists.

        Israel knows that the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure controlled
        by Yasser Arafat is fed by the same sources; most of the ammunition,
        explosives, trainers for suicide and mega-terror techniques, comes
        from Iran, largely through Lebanon, from al Qaeda and from Syria. But
        because the Bush government has chosen to leave these sources of the
        Arab-Islamic campaign waged against US troops unscathed, so too have
        Ariel Sharon and his government refrained from destroying the
        Palestinian infrastructure nurtured by that same Arab-Muslim Trio.

        It is no secret that Israel's campaign of targeted assassinations and
        preventive operations against the Hamas barely scratched the surface
        of the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure. This restraint was
        explained by the need to bolster Abu Mazen's standing and hopes that
        he and his internal security minister Mohamed Dahlan would finally do
        the job.

        In fact, Israel's selective counter-terror tactics actually weakened
        the former Palestinian prime minister. The Hamas was not his enemy,
        but Arafat, while the most massive terrorist infrastructure was not
        the one built by Hamas but the one based on his Tanzim, Fatah and al
        Aqsa Martyrs (Suicides) Brigades. Israeli forces concentrated on
        hitting the Hamas and scarcely touched Arafat's forces, allowing them
        to gain strength. When Palestinian politicians saw Arafat getting
        away with his buildup and with pulling support away from Abbas, they
        deserted the prime minister in droves leaving him with no choice but
        to quit.

        Abu Mazen's downfall is not his alone; neither is it a passing
        episode. His debacle spells the crash of any foreseeable prospects of
        Palestinian-Israeli progress towards a peaceful settlement. His
        removal leaves Bush and Sharon face to face with Arafat and the
        violent offensive he is preparing to loose. Gone is the artificial
        buffer presented by the flimsy Au Mazan-Dahlan administration. Since
        Israel forces were restrained from striking at the foundations of
        Arafat's military strength, the next Palestinian-Israeli war is
        likely to be more violent and bloody than the previous rounds.

        This prospect is bound closely to events in Iraq and the global war
        on terror.

        Until mid-August, the watchword of Islamic jihadist radicals was
        "Palestine Tumadikun!" - We march on Palestine! - there to prevail
        over the Israelis and the Americans. Since then, a new slogan has
        taken over: "Iraq Tumadikun! - We march on Iraq! - there to prevail
        over the Americans and the Israelis.

        The combination of emblems on the cover of a new booklet published by
        al Qaeda says it all: the Sword of Islam cutting through a US-Israeli
        flag montage with a American military truck in flames below the text.

        As DEBKAfile wrote some days ago, the final Islamic-US battle lines
        run through "Palestine" to Iraq. This has always been the political,
        national, strategic, tactical and terrorist doctrine guiding Arafat's
        every step; it was naïve to imagine he would be thrown off course by
        a lightweight bureaucrat like Abu Mazen.

        The right-wing ministers of the Sharon government are now speaking up
        loudly in favor of expelling Arafat. They are too late. With Abbas
        gone, he can finally make his dream come true of standing on the same
        pedestal as Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Capturing Arafat,
        killing him or sending him into exile will not undo his handiwork. He
        has used the phony ceasefire attained by the departed Palestinian
        prime minister to manufacture a terrorist machine on a national scale
        that is closely linked to Tehran, Damascus, Beirut and al Qaeda and
        has its own built-in mechanism for automatic operation, with or
        without his pushing buttons.

        The Economic Aspect

        Ten years after the 1993 Oslo Framework Accords were signed by
        Israeli and the Palestinians, the theory at the bottom of their
        conception is still current, that the Palestinians can be weaned away
        from terrorism by investments that improve their standard of living
        and provide them with decent medical and education services. This
        might have worked had the vast sums of international aid funds - $16
        bn in a decade - been spent on these laudable goals. In actual fact,
        the money was sunk into fabricating the mightiest terror machine
        every seen and the lining of its masters' pockets. Yasser Arafat's
        great national enterprise since 1983 has been to build a terrorist
        empire on the West Bank that outstrips the terrorist kingdom ruling
        the Gaza Strip.

        from debka , ......

        have a nice day
        - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
        - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
        WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

        Comment


        • #94
          Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were all "decapitated", humiliated, forced to surrender, appointed a non-democratic western ruler, and brain-washed against their former policies.

          Yes, and the Allies established an apartheid regime with settlements.


          Nowhere did I claim that it settlements were part of the "denazification" process. I thought you were serious about the discussion and treated it as such. If you wish to return to "point scoring" I can do that.

          Btw, most attempts at denazification lead to the Persilschein-mentality. The real dealing with the past came in the 60s and 70s. In Germany, the 2nd tier of the Weimar political elite, like Adenauer, was still around. A working civil administration was available. It's ahistorical bollocks to compare Germany and Palestine 1:1 (or Iraq).

          I never said I compare it 1:1. But I think it's comparable enough.

          I'm not familiar enough with the meaning of Persilschein, nor with what you are suggesting, that the denazification policy brought no gains.

          I sincerely doubt that had Allied troops left Japan to be run by their previous militant leaders, and Germany to be run by their previous militant leaders, they would not have been as pacifistic, orderly and democratic as we know them.

          Thus I see no reason for the leadership of the PLO (set up in 1964 to remind you) to govern Palestine.

          I think Israel made a grave error in accepting their return. It would have been better to wait 10 more years, and start dealing afresh, with a new local leadership, which did not have a history of terror.

          Why don't you come along to our intelligence HQ and we'll show you the data.

          IOW, you have no evidence.

          IOW?

          I'm saying that the evidence was available in the miltiary and foreign affairs websites. I can't find it now, but I've read it there, in english.

          Btw, if you ARE interested, copies of the said documents proving Arafat signing on orders to pay known Al-Aqsa terrorists

          Different thing. On that standard, Israel funds Al Aqsa, too.

          Yes I know that some of the money Israel has unfroze and trasferred to the PA is very likely to reach terrorists. That's why Israel has froze the money in the first place.

          However, out of hope that Abbas would have taken charge and put the money into police forces instead, and under severe American pressure, we unfroze it.

          But that's the whole point - Arafat has NEVER listened to the Europeans. He has never done anything anybody asked him to, unless the US was seriously twisting his arm.

          The US? What has it done?
          Arafat is a *****, and everyone has little influence on what he does. As far as I'm concerned, we should get out of all that crap. Israel and PA.

          The US uses it's leverage on Israel. So far the US has on several occassions stopped or prevented Israeli incursions, and until recently has been blocking the option to remove Arafat.

          The "political wing" provides funding, organization, and religious justification to the actions of the "militant wing".

          I agree that distinguishing doesn't make much sense, unless you think you can negotiate with hamas.

          I completely agree.

          I also find the notion some european countries had that you can negotiate with Hamas ridiculous. They have been applying conclusions made in N. Ireland, improperly. The people there want limited goals - autonomy / independance.

          Hamas wants to eventually eradicate Israel completely. To think that if we gratify them the 67 borders they will weaken and decide to stop, is wrong.

          Comment


          • #95
            And the palestinains still view him as their egitimately chosen leader, which is the point.

            Strike the words legitimately chosen, and keep only the word leader, and I would agree.

            The annalogy is utterly incorrect. The Palestianins have never had a state of their own to be conquered, and what is currently going on is not a huge war.

            The PLO and now the PA is a ruling autonomic mechanism, with a military force, that has used political terror, propoganda, and military force against national political rivals such as Israel, Jordan and Lebanon.

            It is in a sense, a "government".

            Both the German and Japanese people accepted the legitimacy of the occupying powers, given that they had lost a war and been invaded (after they invaded others). No Palestinian sees the Israeli occupation as in any imaginable way legitimate.

            I'm perfectly sure that no german or japanese saw the occupation as really legitimate. They accepted it as a reality forced on them.

            The problem with the Palestinians, that mid-eastern and especially Islamic culture does not accept the notion of limited constrained conflicts. A conflict is absolute, and is decided by absolute eradication of either side.

            If you check to see arab literature and culture, in the eyes of most, it's more or less a continuation of the same struggle starting in the crusades.

            Plus, the palestiians don;t need to be brainwashed to gain anti-Israeli feelings. Their eery day lives are more than enough of a rude education in that.

            That is a straw man.

            The fact that they can gain anti-Israeli feelings from actual experiences do not diminish my claim, that anti-Israeli propoganda creates a much harsher response, and is used to tunnel the feelings of hate in agressive militant measures.

            I have always thought that the west seriously under appriciates the effects and effectiveness of propoganda to the masses.

            Studies done by Israeli-Palestinian joint researches about the image of Israelis in the eyes of Palestinian youth and children, found conclusively that the more Palestinians had contact with Israelis, the better they would see them.

            The Palestinians who had rarely been in actual contact with plain israelis, settlers or soldiers, all had much harsher and more demonic views of Israelis.

            I've read an article about the Balcan wars depicting the huge amounts of propoganda on both sides, which prior to the war, in half a decade, increased popular hatred and made the populations very eager to wage war.

            Looks like peace will be set back at least several years (due to the inevitable Israeli invasion). What worries me is that every year longer the occupation lasts, the more the occupied territories will be dominated by Palestinians who have no memory of living side by side with Israelis; the only interaction the youngest generations have had with Israelis, have been with occupying soldiers and settlers, which makes a lasting peace that much harder to acheive.

            There is no palestinian memory of living side by side with Israel in a normal way.

            There has always been conflict. With the pals getting the upper hand before 47, and Israel getting the upper hand after 47.

            Comment


            • #96
              It hasn't worked for 30 years before Oslo, what on earth makes you think it will work now?

              Oh but it has.

              Since the palestinian media and school rooms and mosques were left to PA administration, the level of propoganda increased.

              At the same time, while Israel began leaving the territories, hatered towards it only increased, due to the channeling of all public discontent into agression towards Israel.


              At some point someone here will ahe to realize there are 3 million Palestinians who's opinions actually matter, and that they will oly accept (just like Israelis will only accept) a peace plan they see having been arrive legitimately by individuals they entrsted with the power to make choices for them. Few Pals. saw Aby Mazen as that man, speically since he was unable to get any significant thing done vis a vi Israel.

              Many palestinians don't see Arafat as their legitimate leader. But they see him as the one they've got and the one they deal with.

              This is not a society in which leadership is based on legitimacy or democracy, but on power. Political, family, military and so on.

              Instead of that prisoner release, or even instead of easing moving restrictions the Israelis could have (with no security implications for themselves) removed all outposts, populated or otherwise, set up since sept. 2000.

              The prisoner release was a gesture not required by the Roadmap, made purely out of Israeli good will, at the demand of Abu Mazen, to appease the terrorist organizations into cooperating.

              And for a while we began removing outposts. But after that while, it was clear that the Pals just sat there and watched, making no steps of their own. So we quit.

              That would have given Mazen a huge boost: but of course would have meant real political heat for Sharon, so only a half step was taken and soon abandoned.

              Again, this is largly a result of the fact that following several outposts removed, Israel expected to see some, even symbolic action on the Pal side. Nothing happenned.

              As you know, nothing happenned until AFTER the suicide bombing in Jerusalem, when the Pals decided to make some show, to appease public opinion, and sealed of one, of the dozens of tunnels used for weapons smuggling, and supposedly froze Hamas assests.

              Comment


              • #97
                Israel should arrest/kill everyone associated with terror, starting with Arafat. They should all be expelled, never to return under penalty of death.

                Thereafter, Israel should conduct elections in Palestine for a new government. No one who should be permitted to be in the new government who is even a relative of anyone who is/was in a terror group. As well, no one should be permitted to run for office who ever supported the destruction of Israel or who applauded in any way the terrorist actions against Israel.

                Clean house, Israel. It seems to be the only solution.
                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                Comment


                • #98
                  Siro:

                  I thought you were serious about the discussion and treated it as such. If you wish to return to "point scoring" I can do that.

                  You were serious about the comparison?

                  I sincerely doubt that had Allied troops left Japan to be run by their previous militant leaders, and Germany to be run by their previous militant leaders,

                  That's another cliché. The leaders of the Weimar Republic were barely militant, and the "prussian militarists" were mostly apolitical - their big role in the Nazi party was an allied myth. There was a strong pacifist movement after WWII anyway - I just have to remind you of the german rearmament debate in the 50s.

                  I'm saying that the evidence was available in the miltiary and foreign affairs websites. I can't find it now, but I've read it there, in english.

                  Ok, so where did it go?

                  However, out of hope that Abbas would have taken charge and put the money into police forces instead, and under severe American pressure, we unfroze it.

                  And our view is that destroying the PA will get you nowhere. The general funding went to the PA finance minister (Fayad?), who has been the darling of the Bush admin.

                  The US uses it's leverage on Israel. So far the US has on several occassions stopped or prevented Israeli incursions, and until recently has been blocking the option to remove Arafat.

                  Yes, so the only influence the US has on Arafat is threatening to unleash Sharon, and it's unsure that has much influence on Arafat either.

                  I also find the notion some european countries had that you can negotiate with Hamas ridiculous. They have been applying conclusions made in N. Ireland, improperly. The people there want limited goals - autonomy / independance.

                  That's the question whether Hamas can settle for less.

                  Hamas wants to eventually eradicate Israel completely. To think that if we gratify them the 67 borders they will weaken and decide to stop, is wrong.

                  In that case, Hamas has the options of becoming Sinn Fein or the RAF. Why do you think they would have much support after a peace deal?
                  “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Ned
                    Israel should arrest/kill everyone associated with terror, starting with Arafat. They should all be expelled, never to return under penalty of death.

                    Thereafter, Israel should conduct elections in Palestine for a new government. No one who should be permitted to be in the new government who is even a relative of anyone who is/was in a terror group. As well, no one should be permitted to run for office who ever supported the destruction of Israel or who applauded in any way the terrorist actions against Israel.

                    Clean house, Israel. It seems to be the only solution.
                    Rubbish. Israel must be destroyed.

                    They are the squatters on the block that no one else in the neighbourhood likes.

                    If Israel goes - hey most problems solved.
                    Only feebs vote.

                    Comment


                    • There is no palestinian memory of living side by side with Israel in a normal way.

                      There has always been conflict. With the pals getting the upper hand before 47, and Israel getting the upper hand after 47.
                      Not with Israel, but with Israelis (specifically, Jewish Israelis). Even though there had always been conflict, they didn't see only the agressive aspect of the Jewish community (soldiers and settlers). Just look at how much more radical the younger generations of Palestinians in the occupied territories are than the older generations.
                      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                      -Bokonon

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Agathon


                        Rubbish. Israel must be destroyed.

                        They are the squatters on the block that no one else in the neighbourhood likes.

                        If Israel goes - hey most problems solved.




                        if we go , so do our enemies , ........
                        - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                        - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                        WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

                        Comment


                        • Sirotnikov is right about propaganda. Does miracles. Serbs and Croats lived together in peace for a long time but propaganda machinery did an awsome job of antagonizing us prior to the outbreak of war. The leaders we elected didn't help either, but it is a viscious circle, them and media.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by VetLegion
                            Sirotnikov is right about propaganda. Does miracles. Serbs and Croats lived together in peace for a long time but propaganda machinery did an awsome job of antagonizing us prior to the outbreak of war. The leaders we elected didn't help either, but it is a viscious circle, them and media.

                            hi ,

                            and there is nothing more sick then prop generated by people who know zip about what goes from 10 000 miles away , .....

                            and the best examples in our region are the EU and to some extend russia , .......

                            if they would stop to interfere in the region we might get a bright future , ......

                            have a nice day
                            - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                            - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                            WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Nuclear Master
                              I have the answer to everything. Arnold needs to run for Prime Minister of Palestine!
                              That would work. As an Austrian (and friend of Kurt Waldheim) he knows lots about killing Jews.
                              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sirotnikov
                                But the euro's are slow to realize they have had no effect, and will never will.
                                Kinda like the US and Isreal, huh? We give you all kinds of money and you spy on us and ignore us.
                                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                                Comment

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