The problem with Socialism

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Pekka
And we are slowly moving to class society, with middle class folks and poor folks. Upper class is almost non existent, but there are some.

By changing the system, rewarding for working there might be a bigger gap between the middle class and poor, and more upper class folks, but I think there would be LESS poor folks. So I don't see what the problem is, less poor folks sounds better option to me than everybody competing who can rise their standard of living to average and who gets to be poor.

capitalisms trick isnt redistributing the pie. its making the pie larger.

[Dis]

hey, at least it's better than the U.S.

[Pekka]

Well, the only way I see socialism working is when everybody has a job. Then I see it can be a good system. But that's unfortunately a dream. We've had a problem with joblessness for years now. What do we now have, couple of hundred thousand jobless folks? That's pretty much for a population of 5 million. Anyway it was something like 8 or 9%. Now, with those figures, the system CAN NOT POSSIBLY WORK. Too expensive!

Now, how can we figure out to get more jobs? It's tough now, since taxes are already very high and everything is expensive, and there's no money, or more tax money, and people losing their jobs all the time, society is not consuming enough because there's not enough money to consume, because the system sucks their money because there are so many jobless people etc. It goes forever like this with a different problem, but it always ends up with the same problem, system can not support itself at all.

[Al B. Sure!]

to add on to yavoon's statement... socialist countries can do nothing but re-distribute wealth... they can not generate any.

and i'd like to say its nice to see Lincoln back... good to see another conservative (who is not a libertarian) around.

[mrmitchell]

That's pretty much for a population of 5 million.

You're forgetting the 12.95 billion Finns hidden in the internet

So THAT'S with all those Finns on the internet...they're just jobless...

The solution to Finland's woes would, obviously, be to cut the welfare and cut taxes. Lower welfare means more incentive not to be a drunken bum. Lower taxes means more incentive for companies to move or stay there.

[David Floyd]

AS,

Conservatives are not libertarians - the terms are mutually exclusive, at least when used WRT American political definitions.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by David Floyd
AS,

Conservatives are not libertarians - the terms are mutually exclusive, at least when used WRT American political definitions.

is libertarian an american political definition?

[Pekka]

AS, it gets tougher when everything gets more expensive, international competition toughens up and you get less tax money all along. Keeping up services cost more money every year just to keep them at the same level. To me, this whole thing is impossible to work. Only if everyone works and is like everyone else, then it could work.

Now we have are starting to have a problem of young folks fleeing the country (not in masses YET) because they have discovered something better. They are highly educated and skilled, and most times gets paid few times over what they would in here, and get more with their money because everything is not so outrageously expensive. Young folks are more brave, they feel that why should they pay back for society. They don't identify with that culture so much. Culture of having responsibilities that are unwritten. Few decades it was a sign of a decent fellow to go work at the age of 16, work for the whole life and survive. But that mentality is loosing its grip soon, when people truly realize the facts.
Then they go and act as if its a surprise our prices are so high and salaries so low, and taxing so high compared to any country in this world.

[Pekka]

mrmitchell, the problem is the whole concept won't work without everyone doing 10-hour days. I agree with taxing and stuff, we need to consume more. We don't have that consumer cromosome in us. The younger folks are getting it though. We need to consume a lot more to make this thing running. But we can't do that because there's nto enough money . We can start dropping taxes maybe 1% per decade from income tax, taking only 400549858 years to finally have it in the right direction. So, that's why I say the system is just too expensive to begin with.

[mrmitchell]

What, do you propose some kind of bloody revolution or something?

Offer some solutions, and NOW youre talking

[Pekka]

I'm afraid we have gone too far and too long to have a good solution working for us, that would affect us that are now living. What is clear to me is that this can not continue. I'm patriotic, but I'm not that patriotic. I have chosen to move away, to another society that shares my beliefs. Maybe show example hopefully what you can do if you make it. Maybe more people then realize that this is not the only way to go.

and I can't afford the revolution.

[Pekka]

And most people won't even go for it. They whine (like me!) all the time about high taxes etc, but they don't exactly want to change the system.
They are ok with working hard and not getting rewarded for it. Because that's all they know. And people in Africa have it worse.

I don't believe in paying the car loans for the rest of my life. And then being taxed for driving it in every corner so much that I have to count my cents. And everyone who disagrees with me saying it's ok why don't you settle for it, I say 'YOU DESERVE BETTER TOO!'. They go with the 'I've been working for 40 years, what you know get your lazy ass to work and stop living off our money with your studying'. I say to them 'EXACTLY! YOU DESERVE MORE YOU HARD WORKING MAN!'. Don't blame me, blame the system! I'm out for every man that is busting their butts off working too long and too hard, I'm out for everyone who can't afford anything. I'm against the system that can not support itself.

[The Vagabond]

Is Finland even more socialist than Sweden?

Strictly speaking, what you have in Finland is not socialism, but rather a strong form of welfare capitalism (with the emphasis on 'welfare'). 'Socialism' is what we had in the Soviet Union.

[Pekka]

I don't know how socialist Sweden is, but it is very hard for me to imagine it being more socialist than us.

[Pekka]

To make a stupid and not working comparison:

If I work the whole day and my buddy does nothing excepts looks me working and smokes cigarettes, and the job gives 20 dollars, then I expect to get that 20 dollars. Now, I can give some of it to my buddy IF I WANT TO. But God damn if someone makes me do it against my own will. GRRR!