Confess! Who here drives an SUV?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Japher
From Templar:

So, since you don't want to others can't? Communist sociopath.

Your actions impact my life, mine impact yours. If Rah buys an SUV to be safer, he endangers everyone else to do so. Actions do not occur in a vacuum.

I am not going to argue the "gas" thing, as I know they do, but it is our choice and not yours what we choose to buy... Welcome to the free market economy.

Welcome to market failure you mean. For a market to function properly, the coast of every transaction must be payed in the transition. In the USA, cheap gas externalizes the environmental costs. That is, what you pay for gas does not represent the damage done to my lungs, flora, fauna, and the asthema rates among poor kids who live near the highway. Make the price of gas reflect the cost and you have a market.

[Japher]

bumper-to-bumper collision

Cars these days don't have bumpers, they have a thin peice of fiberglass attached to a plastic frame.

I want metal between me and all the little zippidy-dos speeding around at 100mph in their tin can death traps... Don't know about you, but that is my choice.

Speaking of which how high does the speedometer on your little, non-SUV, vehicle go? My truck only goes to 95... My wives little car goes up to 135!!!

While you say my large, metal, gas guzzling, safe vehicle is the problem I say fast (which takes up more gas), crumpled, unsafe vehicles are the problem.

Why not everyone be required to drive a SUV then there would be no problem... Except for the environment, but then how much pollution does a properly maintained vehicle put out compared to equal amount of energy production from a coal powered plant?

Silly, hybrids

[mindseye]

And last time I checked, I haven't killed anybody on the road, so that arguement has no validity with me.

Do you think that most auto-related deaths are incurred by repeat killers?

[MikeH]

I'm going to drive an Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank because I'm concerned about the safety of my family. It's tracked so it's great in the snow and it has chobham/steel armour which makes it very safe in crashes. I only live 10 miles away from work so the 3 litres per mile fuel consumption (optimum) is OK. Also I never have to worry about finding a parking space.

[rah]

Even as absurd as it sounds, if you could afford it, (hahahaha), more power to you.

I don't think my having a small SUV endangers other drivers any more than other vehicles already on the road. I have a better driving record than 98% of the people on the road. (according to my insurance company).
We should outlaw all sportscars that speed, since they are a bigger danger. We should outlaw 99% of all teenagers from driving because they're a bigger danger.
We should outlaw all semi's because they're a bigger danger.
We should outlaw all police cars, because they're a bigger danger.

So cut the I'm a bigger danger to you crap. It just doesn't wash.

[MikeH]

The point is that a driver in an SUV is a bigger danger than they would be if they drove a normal car.

I'm sure you are a very safe driver. That doesn't mean everyone else who drives one is. The main problem I see is that the more SUVs are around the more people feel they need them for safety, cause getting hit by an SUV if you are in a normal car is going to hurt a lot. If everyone feels they need an SUV for safety then the world's fuel consumption rockets and that's not something the world can afford.

[Asher]

The biggest dangers to drivers on the road are the morons who can't drive, not SUVs.

Ban Liberals from getting behind the wheel and everyone will be better off.

As for whoever said front wheel drive is anywhere near as good as 4WD in the snow, who are you kidding?? Have you ever driven in snow?

I'll give you an example of why the SUV can kick ass:
Last term during finals, we had a huge sudden storm which occured after the plows had been put away for the summer, which caused a huge delay in getting them out. My friends and I had a final exam at 3pm that day, and it was not cancelled because it was too late to cancel (although, the people who missed it [a LOT of people] could take it weeks later -- that sucks).

I took the SUV, the side of the roads and residential streets were literally littered with cars stuck and abandonded. The SUV (four wheel drive, winter tires, ABS, vehicle skid control) took it no problem. It was a bit bumpier, but that was it. I ended up picking up four of my friends and giving them a ride, two of which called me from their cell phones because their cars got stuck when they tried to get to school.

The skid control itself came out at least half a dozen times. It constantly analyzes your velocity and detects oversteer, understeer, and general sliding and skidding, then computers take over and apply individual braking and gas to every wheel to ensure you go where you intended to do, rather than slide, and beeps when it does so.

If it wasn't for the SUV, would've been screwed.

Never underestimate the power ofSUVs in winter weather -- there's a reason they're so insanely popular in my area.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by MikeH
The point is that a driver in an SUV is a bigger danger than they would be if they drove a normal car.

I'm sure you are a very safe driver. That doesn't mean everyone else who drives one is. The main problem I see is that the more SUVs are around the more people feel they need them for safety, cause getting hit by an SUV if you are in a normal car is going to hurt a lot. If everyone feels they need an SUV for safety then the world's fuel consumption rockets and that's not something the world can afford.

On the bright side, as fuel consumption increases, the quicker the cheap oil (i.e. the oil that can be had cheaply) is going to run out. Thus, the quicker all those expensive SUVs will become driveway sculptures.

Then Rah and his family can take the subway (which BTW is even safer than either an SUV or a minivan).

[Asher]

People usually ask me for weed when I take the LRT.

Anyone in a hoody is a stoner, you know.

Oh, you also gotta love the drunk natives all the time...

It's only safer if you don't take into account how many muggings and assaults take place in and around LRT/subway stations.

[Japher]

normal car

You hurt my truck's feelings.

Please note that the SUV fuel consumption is not THAT high compared to what is used to burn and create energy for green peace hippies to ignorantly plug their hybrid into.

Also, please note that as early as 20 years ago cars were getting much worse gas millage when compared with cars of today and fuel consumption was much less, even with the advances of PT (which, by the way, uses more fuel than my truck does... maybe even per capita in some areas). My 66 Malibu get 15 mpg, and so does my truck.

Also, note, that emission controls are highly regulated here CA more than any where else in the world. Complaining about emissions is a regulation and device argument, not a fuel economy and car size argument.

The only good argument I do see is that a SUV, poorly driven, is a bigger risk than any other "car" that is poorly driven. I think the speed issue, however, makes it much less of an issue. Yet, an SUV can turn a fender bender into a $5,000 repair job. That, for the other car, where the SUV has but a scratch...

Therefore, I complain about people not driving a car made out of what they should be made out of; metal!

That is why a suggest that they require SUV drivers to pass a different drivers test than with other cars. They are more difficult to drive, and stupid people don't realize this...

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Originally posted by The Templar
I'd just as soon ban all non-commmercial non-cars from public roads. In fact, I'd just as soon tear down public roads and let everyone use mass transit. Even Amtrak is safer than driving.

Cool. Let me know when passenger rail gets within 100 miles of my house.

[Asher]

I don't think many Europeans understand how painful mass transit is in North America where everything isn't piled on top of eachother like their continent...

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Asher
I don't think many Europeans understand how painful mass transit is in North America where everything isn't piled on top of eachother like their continent...

More North American cities should have built themselves to resemble New York and DC (two cities where I have lived without a car quite confortably). New Orleans, if they increased streetcar coverage could have a transit system that links most of the city. The problem is poor urban planning and the "white flight" phenomena from the 70s and 80s. (And poor urban and regional planning is why you don't have passenger rail nearby dv8ed.)

Oh, and if the cost of roads were passed on in full to the users of roads, you woundn't see so many damn cars in North America. The fact is, non-drivers (like myself) help subsidize the roadways.

Japher:

Yes, electricity should be wind or solar generated and distributed in the form of hydrogen so that ZEVs do not depend on a fossil fuel down the line for energy.

Oh, and you can put all the catalytic converters on a car that you want, but burning a hydrocarbon like gas for fuel is going to produce CO2. You know, CO2, that greenhouse gas. But again, this cost is externalized on to the rest of us ...

[rah]

Originally posted by The Templar
Then Rah and his family can take the subway (which BTW is even safer than either an SUV or a minivan).

Unfortunately I have to drive to the subway/train.
In fact, our company is moving into the city next year. The best train station is right next to our current office location, so I'm going to have to drive to where I used to drive to work. (pay for parking, which i don't have to now) and get on a train for 45 minutes to get into the city. It's going to suck.

And no, I will not drive into the city unless it's for a special reason.

[Verto]

Originally posted by rah
You must look at the situation and not just spew generalizations.

Don't condemn everyone who drives an SUV. I come from a large family, and we needed a car that fit our needs. Not everyone who drives an SUV does it because of a "my-car-is-bigger-than-yours" syndrome. Some of us need to be able to carry more than 3 people when we drive around, as well as cargo in the back and on the roof, in addition to a trailer for vacations or trips. The only hybrid I know that could fill my needs is the Ford Escape Hybrid, which isn't out yet.

There are valid reasons for driving an SUV. People who spout off about how they guzzle gas and support terrorism need to go after the families of 3 who "support terrorism" by keeping their 17,000 square foot mansion at a crisp 72 degrees all day long.

My SUV gets 18 mpg in the city, and 25 on the highway. I know people with Camaros and Mustangs who get the same kind of mileage. Which is worse? Packing a V8 in a sports coupe, or putting it in an SUV where it will be used for valid purposes?

EDIT: And SUVs have been redesigned to be "more safe" in SUV-dinky car collisions.

And there seem to be a lot of people who blame the SUVs for being too big, too bulky, and too dangerous. Well, I blame the little econoboxes for being too small and too lightweight. Is it our fault your car is designed to be light and get 30 mpg, at the cost of having no protection in the event of a crash?