I'm With Stupid IX: Results

[Zylka]

How about shut the f*ck up and learn how to play the game before coming back with complaints?

[badams52]

Actually Zylka, I'll probably help you win in round XI. Already sent them in for X though.

[Zylka]

Looks like this sucker would've beaten them all. Hmm, I can't find any comparitive diagrams of famous battleships not unlike the skyscraper page diagram

[badams52]

Originally posted by badams52
Seriously, if we have to rely on people making great questions, then we'll never see Zylka lower than Sava in the I'm with stupid contest. The fact that Zylka ended up 5th is proof enough as far as I'm concerned that the game will continue to degrade to the I'm with Zylka game.

Actually, I'm going to retract my position. Given Agathon's suggestion that it was amazing how many of us Apolytoner's got thrashed by Zylka made me think Zylka's answers to all the questions was some form of Zylka, which after doing the calculations is obviously wrong and with Zylka himself saying he voted Bismark, I can see that the foundation I stood upon was incorrect.

I was incorrect in thinking Zylka got into the top 5 with default answers on all questions. If someone wrote "Zylka" in every answer, then they would have scored somewhere in the 51 range.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by badams52


Actually, I'm going to retract my position. Given Agathon's suggestion that it was amazing how many of us Apolytoner's got thrashed by Zylka made me think Zylka's answers to all the questions was some form of Zylka, which after doing the calculations is obviously wrong and with Zylka himself saying he voted Bismark, I can see that the foundation I stood upon was incorrect.

I was incorrect in thinking Zylka got into the top 5 with default answers on all questions. If someone wrote "Zylka" in every answer, then they would have scored somewhere in the 51 range.

You are right. Zylka came fifth in this round because he gave very good answers. I think he only answered his own name once, although I can't be sure.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Hey, tough titties. We're comparing the ships as they were, not as they might have been. If we can allow you to assume the Bismarck would have been fitted with better radar, why not allow us to assume the same for the Iowa-class?

The point is that such radars only became an issue post 1943. Presumably we are comparing the ships themselves here. Who is to say that the Bismarck would not have been modified if it had survived and if the Germans had seen a military use in doing so. We aren't talking about a major refit here, like the one given the Queen Elizabeth's after WW1; we are talking about minor changes which may well have happened.

Besides, by 1944 German resources were so low that I doubt she would have had such a refit. They couldn't even finish their sole fleet carrier that was in production.

That is true. I don't think there would have been good military reasons for a refit either.

And this is only ONE of the Bismarck's disadvantages. She still has to contend with being slower, less maneuverable, much less armored and having less range.

Again, I've said I reject such comparisons as being incomplete. Before the Battle of Jutland the Royal Navy was confident in the superiority of its ships. On paper they were superior. However, the Germans proved they had superior ships in that battle, even though they lost. Merely giving the thickness of armour plating isn't good enough since the disposition and quality of such plating has much to do with the battleworthiness of the ship. Similarly merely giving the speed of a ship is no good since maneuverability issues are just as important.

It was basically the same story in the Denmark Straits. One German capital ship accompanied by a heavy cruiser managed to beat off two of the Royal Navy's most powerful heavy ships. That battle is essentially Jutland in miniature in many respects.

First - the British lost a battlecruiser through poor design (it was a lucky hit one might say, but then look at the lucky hits which took out the Queen Mary, Indefatigable, and Invincible at Jutland - there is no reason to think that the Hood would not have blown up eventually had the battle proceeded longer).

Second - the German gunnery was more accurate and more devastating - just like at Jutland.

Third - things went wrong on the new British ship the POW. The Bismarck operated cleanly and efficiently.

That's one German heavy ship against two British heavy ships and the German ship won easily. The Prinz Eugen doesn't really come into it because she really didn't have the firepower to severely damage the British ships (despite the ridiculous rumour that the Prinz Eugen really sank the Hood).

Is there any proven data of how well an Iowa class ship holds up under heavy fire? No. In the case of the Bismarck there is - the Brits couldn't sink her and she was scuttled, which shows what a well made ship she was. It's design that wins battles, not statistics.

Tell, me if you're given a choice between being on either of the two ships in a fight to the death, and you'll go down if you're on the loser, would you honestly choose the Bismarck over an Iowa-class? I would have to think you're suicidal if you said yes. Me, I'll happily stay on the ship that can fire accurately on the other without being within in the other ship's firing range. Duh.

I'd go for the Bismarck. Better crew for a start (and yes, a ship needs a crew). I don't think the Iowa's long range fire was all it was cracked up to be. For example:

We have compelling proof from USN sources that there was a serious problem in the US range charts with both the 16”/45 and 16”/50 guns, and that the results were overshoot errors in excess of 1,000 yards. This problem persisted into 1945, and it was shown to be an important concern by a series of range shoots that were done in 1944/45 to quantify the deviations. We know a faulty temperature assessment charge for the propellant was partially responsible for this problem, but other concerns relate to possibly faulty wear tables and “wobble” effects caused by the 2,700 pound shell’s center of gravity. Indeed, the 2,700 pound shells flight characteristics were not as good as its earlier cousin’s (center of gravity was less ideal for stabilization), and that is why the lighter shells were preferred in target shoots. These latter issues demand more research at present, but there is no doubt about the assessment error. Indeed, there is textual proof that the accuracy problems were so severe that new cams had to be made for the FC computers, although these were not fitted until after the war was over.

Look we can argue this until the cows come home. My argument is based on the facts that statistics aren't much help when it comes to a real battle. The Bismarck proved itself to be an effective ship in what should have been a one sided battle. To my knowledge no Iowa class ship was similarly tested against quality opposition. The Bismarck fought against the overall best navy in the world. You can't say the same about the US Navy.

At least I hope you are no longer convinced that the Bismarck was shown to be poor by her impaired performance in the final battle with Rodney and KGV. I think the material posted previously puts that to rest.

[Panag]

GRAF ZEPPELIN
(Deutsche Werke,Kiel, Dec. 8, 1938)
PETER STRASSER
(Germania,Kiel, building)
Both laid down in 1936, under the Programme for that year.)
Displacement: 19,250 tons
Length: 820.3 ft
Beam: 88.5 ft
Draught: 18.3 ft (mean)
Aircraft: 40
Guns:
16 - 5.9 inch
10 - 4.1 inch AA
22 - 37 mm AA
Machinery: Geared turbines
Speed: 32 kts
Armour: Casemates for 5.9 inch guns. No bulges.


GRAF ZEPPELIN


GRAF ZEPPELIN


Notes: Flight deck reported to measure 790x88.5 feet.Sides appear to be for two-thirds of length amidships, and to a lesser extent as bow, which is of bulbous form.Will have island superstructure on starboard side.One of these aircraft carriers was photographed from the air, fitting out alongside a quay in the Naval Dockyard at Kiel,in July,1940,whence she is believed to have proceeded to Gdynia. P. Strasser does not appear to have been completed.
Notes: The construction of Peter Strasser was stopped, the half completed ship was broken down. The Graf Zeppelin left shipyard, but its armament and engines never where completed, left the shipyard in dec. 1938. its construktion displacement was 27 650 ts ist estimated max. weight 33 550 ts. It should have carried 42 planes (30 Ju-87D divebombers and 12 Me-109T fighters). To the end of the war everything usefull was removed for other projects. The hull was removed to later Poland to bring it out of range of allied airraids. In 1945 it was sunk by german troops near Stettin in the mouth of the river Oder. In 1946 it was elevated by the russians an send to St. Pererburg (then Leningrad) in 1947. The informations of its loss in sea are unclear, some say it was hit by mine, others it was sunk by torpedo, some think damges of the outer sealings causes its sinking. Perhaps it was another time elevated an later dismantled in St. Petersburg.


hi ,

and who was it saying again that germany never even thought about a carrier before or during ww II , .....

have a nice day

[mrmitchell]

Insta-Solution to any "Zylka" problem:

Don't answer Zylka.

If no one answers Zylka then it won't be a problem.

(Oh and BTW, Zylka did indeed only use "Zylka" as an answer a few times this round, apparently. )

[Kuciwalker]

sava just can't make 7

[Agathon]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Insta-Solution to any "Zylka" problem:

Don't answer Zylka.

If no one answers Zylka then it won't be a problem.

(Oh and BTW, Zylka did indeed only use "Zylka" as an answer a few times this round, apparently. )

No he did not. He used it once. If he had given a better answer to the fashion question he would have won the competition hands down.

[Sava]

HAHAHA last place again!

[badams52]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Insta-Solution to any "Zylka" problem:

Don't answer Zylka.

If no one answers Zylka then it won't be a problem.

(Oh and BTW, Zylka did indeed only use "Zylka" as an answer a few times this round, apparently. )

Well, you can lead a horse to water...

[Zylka]

You are a sad individual. I must recommend any of many available pro-active self esteem exercises.

-Doc

[Straybow]

How did I know from the moment I read the questions that this would devolve into a BB píssing contest?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Straybow
How did I know from the moment I read the questions that this would devolve into a BB píssing contest?

Unfortunately, Agathon would rather ignore the actual qualities of the ships themselves and rely on a fantasy. Tell me, Ags, if the argument is of which ship was technically superior, what the hell does it matter how good the German gunners would be vs. American?