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**SlowwHand** · July 12, 2003, 18:46

I have another for you.
3000 civilians dead.

**MOBIUS** · July 12, 2003, 18:59

Originally posted by SlowwHand
I have another for you.
3000 civilians dead.

Actually I think it's 5000+ and counting if you mean the Iraqi civilians that have been killed as a direct result of the US' bungled attempt at 'regime change'...

**Ted Striker** · July 12, 2003, 19:01

Oh you would just love that MOBIUS

Maybe you can **** as the death count numbers come in.

**Evil Knevil** · July 12, 2003, 19:05

I think the number of (confirmed) dead soldiers is over 9,000, as my previous signature stated.

The civilian dead is about 3000-4000. This climbs into the tens of thousands if you consider that you ****ing morons messed up the hospitals, laura norder and electricity.

Edit - next time you bypass the censor, you'll get a week off.

**Victor Galis** · July 12, 2003, 19:07

I fail to see how this is a nightmare scenario.

**The diplomat** · July 12, 2003, 19:08

How did we mess up Iraq? We did defeat the Saddam regime in less than 3 weeks. We have rebuilt a new Iraqi police force from scratch. We have begun rebuilding a new Iraqi military from scratch. We are rebuilding the economic infrastructure. And there is a new governing council that is the beginnings of a new government by the Iraqis, for the Iraqis and from the Iraqis.

All in all, looks like we are making slow progress.

The attacks are to be expected. They are not that serious. They are just a few disgruntled Baathist. It will go away in 1-2 years.

**MOBIUS** · July 12, 2003, 19:14

Originally posted by The diplomat
It will go away in 1-2 years.

Assuming the US leaves in 1-2 years...

**Evil Knevil** · July 12, 2003, 19:15

The attacks will probably fade away, there is no doubt in that I agree.

We did defeat the Saddam regime in less than 3 weeks.

So? Nothing to do with the post-war mismanagement.

We have rebuilt a new Iraqi police force from scratch.

Which is still afraid to patrol the streets.

We have begun rebuilding a new Iraqi military from scratch.

Which will help you fuck off earlier?

We are rebuilding the economic infrastructure.

How? By appointing and replacing hordes of ineffectual administrators? By failing to get water, electricity and food in, making Iraq dependant on aid? By encouraging people to go back to work, while restricting their movements, banning large swathes of professionals and sticking ****ing great bombs in the infrastructure?
The only part of the economy that is starting to get back on its feet is the oil sector. But I don't want to get into a debate about the motives behind this, if there are any.

**The diplomat** · July 12, 2003, 19:18

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Assuming the US leaves in 1-2 years...

And why wouldn't we?

**The diplomat** · July 12, 2003, 19:23

Originally posted by Evil Knevil
Which is still afraid to patrol the streets.

That will change.

The only part of the economy that is starting to get back on its feet is the oil sector. But I don't want to get into a debate about the motives behind this, if there are any.

That is a vital goal. With oil, Iraq will be able to buy what it needs. The oil is for the Iraqi people, you know!

I got to ask everybody: why the pessimism? Do you want a "nightmare"? Do you want a quagmire with lots of dead US soldiers?

**Whaleboy** · July 12, 2003, 19:36

And why wouldn't we?

Assuming the Iraqis dont turn up the heat such that the US will leave (and good luck to them), the US will stay for influence, oil, and its self-admitted desire to garrison an Arab state (what it said about saudi arabia after Gulf War I).

Even if the US's only desire is the creation of a viable (most likely puppet but hey) state, a proposition I seriously doubt, then it would take a number of years as stabilisation, not to mention tech, infrastructure and bureaucratic support, of course, someone would need to fill the power vacuum until the forces of a new Iraqi state can take over. If that doesnt happen, then it is most likely that Iraq would be administered by other Arabs, the UN (the best option of all imo), or rival warlords until the UN or Saudi intervenes.

The oil is for the Iraqi people, you know!

Who told you that? Bush??

Do you want a quagmire with lots of dead US soldiers?

Nope, but I dont want a sovereign nation under foreign occupation. If the Iraqis dont want them, and that is the way it is looking (even the pro US voices are giving them 18-24 months before they turn anti), and the USA doesnt leave on their request (which should be the peoples perogative), then they can expect to be shot at, blown up, or murdered. While I dont particularly like that, I understand that, and they have more justification in kicking out foreign troops than the US has in staying (or even being there).

**Evil Knevil** · July 12, 2003, 19:37

That will change.

Yes but the point you were making was that it was a good and useful thing that was set up. Only when the situation dies down (which may take a long while) will the police force be useful. I contend that the Americans aren't helping the unstability.

That is a vital goal. With oil, Iraq will be able to buy what it needs. The oil is for the Iraqi people, you know!

The oil money will help the Iraqi people buy big **** infrastructure projects, which will probably be mismanaged. Besides how is it going to help getting the country back in order?

I got to ask everybody: why the pessimism? Do you want a "nightmare"? Do you want a quagmire with lots of dead US soldiers

Personally I think you should pay in blood for what you've done. Besides that, exhorting people to be optimistic doesn't change the fact that the post-war running of the country is messed up. Whining about pessimissm, while holding dear to the US Governments delusional 'faith' does not magically make things better. Especially not for ordinary Iraqis.

**Whaleboy** · July 12, 2003, 19:40

Evil Knevil:

Did you read that study a while back that said that states with oil tend to be more fcuked up for the people on the ground than non-oil states? I'll try to find a link

**The diplomat** · July 12, 2003, 19:55

Originally posted by elijah
If the Iraqis dont want them, and that is the way it is looking

But the vast majority of Iraqis do want us there. US soldiers in Iraq have said that most Iraqis they talk to are glad to see them. It is only an incredibly small minority of Saddam loyalist that are trying to cause trouble because they have nothing better to do.

Announcement

Nightmare Scenario: Over a thousand dead US soldiers and a bill of around $125bn...

Nightmare Scenario: Over a thousand dead US soldiers and a bill of around $125bn...

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