Why do conservatives say poor don't pay taxes?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Economics is a game, and should be treated as such.

This is offensive. You seem to have no tendency for compasion. Economics is reality. Economics determines peoples happiness and suffering.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
Kidicious... it's called motivation. Get off your lazy ass and work. You have to work hard in this world to succeed. Sure, every one in a million get's lucky and is born into a rich oil family and becomes president, but 99.99% about America is hard work. And I don't mean manual. It takes hustle, discipline, and a clear concept of responsibility. Sure there are mostly mitigating circumstances, but still. If people become dependent on society, they become slaves to it.

Bull Sava. I can't believe what I'm hearing. You have taken it hook, line, and sinker.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Economics is a game, and should be treated as such.

If you see it as a game, why do you have such a big problem with the government playing around with the funny money of this game?

[Dis]

suffering?

I think some of you really need to take a close look at poor people. I have grown up poor, I see how they think. Hell I think that way as well. The only reason I don't act that way is because I've made every attempt in my life to become middle class (I couldn't stand being poor- there are several rough events in my childhood that made me feel this way). I'm not there yet, but I'm closer.

There is no shortage of money. You guys really have to go to Las Vegas. The poor blow money gambling like you wouldn't believe. They have plenty of money. They just prefer to blow their money on drugs, alcohol, gambling, women- you name it.

I don't blame them. You have to have fun in life.

The main thing they lack is discipline. They lack the discipline to do much with their money. Discipline is something I have massive amounts of. Even though I make really, really ****ty wages, I am very good at saving and investing money. So I am doing pretty good in terms of economic assets even though I make less than $30,000 a year.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Dissident
suffering?
There is no shortage of money. You guys really have to go to Las Vegas. The poor blow money gambling like you wouldn't believe. They have plenty of money. They just prefer to blow their money on drugs, alcohol, gambling, women- you name it.

It's a fact that people in this country don't have enough income to meet their needs. Many of those people have lost all hope or never had it in the first place. That's why they abuse themselves and others.

If you haven't lost hope that's good, but you can't say that life won't beat the hell out of you to the point that you just don't give a **** anymore. That can happen to anyone and regularly does to people from all walks of life.

[Dis]

I'm to that point in my life now.

I'm bored with life.

It offers no challenge anymore.

I am really thinking about doing something drastic. No not suicide- I've already contemplated that. I just don't have the guts to do myself in.

I need to go on a vision quest or something.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Dissident
I'm to that point in my life now.

I'm bored with life.

It offers no challenge anymore.

I am really thinking about doing something drastic. No not suicide- I've already contemplated that. I just don't have the guts to do myself in.

I need to go on a vision quest or something.

I'm really sorry Dissident, and I hope you find more meaning in your life. A lot of time young people don't think things will get better, but they almost always do. People who don't enjoy life when they are young usually enjoy life more when they get older.

[Kidlicious]

Dissident,

Improving your economic well being isn't the only way to improve yourself. Maybe you would be happy if you found additional ways to improve yourself, and that might make you happy. Maybe you could find something that you are good at and help people with it.

[Dis]

I'm sure you are right about that. I'm mainly thinking about changine jobs again. I get bored working the same job after a few years. I need a more intellectually stimulating job.

But enough of threadjacking my own thread

anyone else have comments about taxation? I'm just so upset by what's going on in my state- by both sides.

[Berzerker]

Sava -

America... owes me what it has promised in the Constitution. It's a social contract. Perhaps you should read it, you might learn something about what society "owes" you. Personally... I don't think I'm owed anything. I think society, as defined, has certain responsibilities.

Where in the Constitution you want Vel to read have you found a "social contract" that includes a paycheck for not having a job?

what I believe is simple:

1. The United State's responsibilities are layed out in the Consitution and the government in power shall interpret the Consitution. The Constitution is the highest law in the land.

Hmm...the oath of office asks members of Congress to "interpret" the Constitution? No, it asks them to uphold the Constitution. And we know very well that you'd try to vote out anyone who didn't agree with your interpretation of the Constitution, so you don't really believe Congress should interpret the Constitution.

2. Any Democracy has a responsibility to provide it's citizens with the means, possibily by representative, to provide their own interpretation of their respective government's responsibilities.

Where in the Constitution did you find the word "Democracy"? The Framers were not fond of democracy you know. Btw, those Framers established a process for changing the Constitution so we wouldn't need to "interpret" it to create new responsibilities.

[Velociryx]

It's not a game when you are working two **** jobs just to survive. Those who choose to play the game should be able to survive in relative comfort as a threshold.

I agree....those who choose to play the game should be able to survive in relative comfort--thus, the strengthened social safety net. No problems whatsoever with that. As I have said in the other (related) thread, there is absolutely NO reason why the poorest of the poor in this country can't have access to all the basics (note that "the basics" does not include cable with 200 channels, a palatial home, and two or three cars in the garage....you want that....how 'bout working for it?)

Get back to me when our society values something other than the almighty dollar.


Here's where you lose me. Society DOES value something other than the almighty dollar. The economy (which is not equal to "society" and is (at best) a smallish subset of it) values the almighty dollar cos it is the fuel that makes the game possible, and this, IMO, is where you are confused. It seems to me that you WANT society = economy. That is to say, you want to value non economic things in economic terms, making it possible to pay someone a handsome salary for staying home (and not contributing to the game, materially), but that's not how it works. The economy pays people for playing, not for sitting at home, but because that's the way it works, do not be deluded into thinking that nothing else in society matters. That is both hollow and untrue.

This is offensive. You seem to have no tendency for compasion. Economics is reality. Economics determines peoples happiness and suffering.


Offensive, huh? Tell me, precisely where and how it is offensive? What is offensive is your desire to leech off of me (and more specifically, to see everybody who just doesn't feel like playing the game...who thinks that it is somehow "beneath them" to leech off of those who DO want to play the game), rather than go make your own way. Again, economics does not determine my happiness and suffering, I determine those things, thankyouverymuch. Again, you are trying to give "economics" more credit than it is due. Our system of economics doesn't say that you can't spend time with the kids, or that you can't sit home and play computer games all day, or whatever else you might want to do....it just says that we're not going to pay you a handsome wage to stay home and not materially contribute to the game....and why should it?

If you see it as a game, why do you have such a big problem with the government playing around with the funny money of this game?
Because "the government" doesn't play the game. It's not a person, and it does nothing to materially contribute to the game. The government's role in economics should be in maintaining the overall environment and maintaining the aforementioned social safety net (as an impartial 3rd party)....which it does fairly well most of the time (though again, as I said before, I think it's clear that the social safety net needs further strengthening)....so, it sounds like you and I agree more than we disagree.

It's a fact that people in this country don't have enough income to meet their needs


:yawn: Again.....I think most people would be happy with around 30k (quote from Kid elsewhere re: this same topic.

Average income in the USA, 2002 figures: $34,420
Are there people who fall below this number? Obviously. But what Kid is implying is that because there are some who do, the answer is to tear down the whole system, take from the rich by force of arms and give to those who have less (except for Kid, of course....I'm quite sure that in his vision of this utopia, he'll be exempted from having to give up anything, but still "get" from those he wishes to rob....being the party boss has it's advantages, you see?

Improving your economic well being isn't the only way to improve yourself.


Yes. Exactly. So why should you get paid for it again?

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Woohoo!!!

Round 5 (or 6?). Caps looking to finish it once and for all.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
This is offensive. You seem to have no tendency for compasion. Economics is reality. Economics determines peoples happiness and suffering.


Offensive, huh? Tell me, precisely where and how it is offensive? What is offensive is your desire to leech off of me (and more specifically, to see everybody who just doesn't feel like playing the game...who thinks that it is somehow "beneath them" to leech off of those who DO want to play the game), rather than go make your own way.

How would I be leeching off of you? You are saying it's a game. I'm not just trying to leech off of you. I'm trying to change the rules of the game so that I win. If we can successfully change the rules of the game the way that you guys did then we can win. You don't have to like our strategy, but you have to admit that you like it better than us just saying '**** this we aren't playing anymore.'

[Sava]

Where in the Constitution you want Vel to read have you found a "social contract" that includes a paycheck for not having a job?

The Preamble. Actually, it's very general and just mentions "the general welfare" of the people.

Hmm...the oath of office asks members of Congress to "interpret" the Constitution? No, it asks them to uphold the Constitution. And we know very well that you'd try to vote out anyone who didn't agree with your interpretation of the Constitution, so you don't really believe Congress should interpret the Constitution.

all branches interpret the Constitution... Congress makes laws within the bounds layed out. The Executive Branch enforces the laws, as interpreted. And the Supreme Court ensures that nothing violates the Constitution. This is basic American Government 101

Where in the Constitution did you find the word "Democracy"? The Framers were not fond of democracy you know. Btw, those Framers established a process for changing the Constitution so we wouldn't need to "interpret" it to create new responsibilities.

This is in reference to John Locke's writings and has nothing to do with the Constitution. I'm speaking of any Democracy. Not just the US. The Constitution is just the base for how the US government and the people interpret government's responsiblities.

[Sava]

Bull Sava. I can't believe what I'm hearing. You have taken it hook, line, and sinker.

taken what? I believe people should work for a living in order to get wealth. Sorry, I don't believe in handouts. I believe in a system designed so that people who want to, can create wealth through hard work and commitment. The primary means to accomplish this is for government to provide health care and education for free... and in economic downturns... public money should be used to create jobs... specifically, public works projects improving infrastructure... but instead, we get welfare for the super-rich.