The sensible liberal's quandry made easy

[Imran Siddiqui]

At least I'm positive .

And on THIS site, I'm sure I'm fairly on the right side.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And on THIS site, I'm sure I'm fairly on the right side.

Of course, 'Poly has posters from outside the US.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
At least I'm positive .

And on THIS site, I'm sure I'm fairly on the right side.

Ted Kennedy would be a right winger on THIS site.

[GePap]

The PCI of Panama is between 5000 and 6000 I forget which, Which for the Third world is high: And life in Panam city is very good, specially if your family earns more than 40,000 a year, and in Panam, most middle class households make about 30-40 k. The interesitng thing though is that this leaves larghe proprtions of the country as poor as anywhere else in Central America. The high PCI does mean that a percentage of the pop has great lives, but it does nothing to really show what percentage of the pop is poor.

Oh,a nd on European GDP's: If you comapre the difference between the PCI of a European country and the US, it is interesting how close the difference comes to the difference between working hours, for the most part. Works real well for germany at least.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by DinoDoc

I think that if a lot of the right-leaners saw how poor people in America really lived,

I live in Mississippi.

Would you like me to send you some dental supplies?

Maybe some shoes?

[Shi Huangdi]

Originally posted by The Templar


Would you like me to send you some dental supplies?

Maybe some shoes?

And maybe in exchange he send you some manners?

Maybe some tact?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Templar
Would you like me to send you some dental supplies?

Maybe some shoes?

At least be creative. It annoys me less that way.

[Thud]

You have plenty to live on if you work 40 hours a week for minimum wage. But of course, if you gotta have your cable TV and second car, you may run into problems fiscally.

Well, yes, of course. But with Nader in charge, and tax rates zooming up to 70%, then I wouldn't be able to support myself. I might live off the government, but I don't stand with being dependent.

Nations with brains have realised that the fundmental question of government is not how far the state interferes in people's lives, but what is the simplest and most efficient way of delivering the services people want.

Exactly. Allow the free market to do it. When a "nation with brains" decides that their government can do it "simplest and most efficient", then you end up with the USSR. Look how that turned out!

Oh. So that's why the hotel I stayed in in LA last year had a huge notice on your bed telling you not to go outside or open your door. Or why it had a heavily armed security guard in the lobby. Silly me...

Most people judge the United States of America solely on L.A., and its a tragedy. They see hollywood movies, hollywood scandals, and they see how decadent L.A.ers are, or they go to L.A. and see the crime and slums, and they say- "we don't like that at all". L.A., is, however, and entirely different world than the rest of the nation.

No, the government should be in the "make sure everyone has an opportunity to feed, clothe and house themselves" business.

Well, here in America, some of us still like our quaint little Constitution, which says that the government must protect our rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Pursuit of happiness, mind you, not to ensure happiness in itself. Everyone has an opportunity to feed, clothe, and house themselves, if they play their cards right. People on the street are on the street for a reason. They made particular choices, and squandered their opportunities.

This is also why our nation is the only one to get so uppity about abortion- life and pursuit of happyness are inalienable rights sure as women's supposed liberty to do whatever they want is.

[Az]

say, are you a libertarian?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Thud

Exactly. Allow the free market to do it. When a "nation with brains" decides that their government can do it "simplest and most efficient", then you end up with the USSR. Look how that turned out!

Pure dogma! Gee look at Victorian England or the US of the early 20th century. Yeah, the market worked out so well - what with people working 12 hour shifts in grueling conditions for a nickel an hour.

The free market will only produce what will make a buck. Unfortunately for your dogma people are not mere consumers.

Most people judge the United States of America solely on L.A., and its a tragedy. They see hollywood movies, hollywood scandals, and they see how decadent L.A.ers are, or they go to L.A. and see the crime and slums, and they say- "we don't like that at all". L.A., is, however, and entirely different world than the rest of the nation.

Oh yes, book burning Christian Fundamentalists of the south would project a much better image to the world.

Everyone has an opportunity to feed, clothe, and house themselves, if they play their cards right. People on the street are on the street for a reason. They made particular choices, and squandered their opportunities.

What a wonderful fairy tail! There's a great book out called "Nickeled and Dimed" which discusses the American Reality - that people are working very hard at two jobs merely to clothe and feed themselves. And then if they have kids, those kids grow up poor with little access to education and little hope and the cycle continues.

Well, yes, of course. But with Nader in charge, and tax rates zooming up to 70%, then I wouldn't be able to support myself. I might live off the government, but I don't stand with being dependent.

I saved this one for last because it best demonstrates your own insecurity - and the same insecurity expressed by all libertarians - dependency.

You see, we are all dependent. Dependent on the company that gives us the job. Dependentt on the landlord to provide housing. Dependent on the grocery store for food. And people who own their own companies are even more dependent - they are slaves to the marketplace, completely dependent on the whims of others.

Independence is best realized by building your own mud hut and engaging in subsitence agriculture. But even then you are dependent on others for companionship.

The "self-made man" is a complete myth. Anyone who obsesses over being "self-made" or completely independent has some mommy-issues.

[Thud]

There's a great book out called "Nickeled and Dimed" which discusses the American Reality - that people are working very hard at two jobs merely to clothe and feed themselves. And then if they have kids, those kids grow up poor with little access to education and little hope and the cycle continues.

I just checked that book out of the library this week actually. Good government institutions, libraries. We'll see if this book changes my mind.

Funny, libraries are free. So are schools. I'm sure if these poor, deprived children took the time to read every book in the very free library, they would be a hell of a lot more knowledgable than me.

"Allowing yourself to be in a situation where you have no choices is still a choice."

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by The Templar



Pure dogma! Gee look at Victorian England or the US of the early 20th century. Yeah, the market worked out so well - what with people working 12 hour shifts in grueling conditions for a nickel an hour.

And of course you have to go back nearly a century or more to find your "examples."

The free market will only produce what will make a buck. Unfortunately for your dogma people are not mere consumers.

So the state's now in the business of meeting spiritual needs and other intangibles?

What a wonderful fairy tail! There's a great book out called "Nickeled and Dimed" which discusses the American Reality - that people are working very hard at two jobs merely to clothe and feed themselves. And then if they have kids, those kids grow up poor with little access to education and little hope and the cycle continues.

Sounds like a nice fairy tale.

I saved this one for last because it best demonstrates your own insecurity - and the same insecurity expressed by all libertarians - dependency.

You see, we are all dependent. Dependent on the company that gives us the job. Dependentt on the landlord to provide housing. Dependent on the grocery store for food. And people who own their own companies are even more dependent - they are slaves to the marketplace, completely dependent on the whims of others.

Nice philosophical point, but you not only missed the boat, you missed the ocean and are at a train depot in Peoria.

The question of "dependency" is not dependent vs. independent.

It's forced dependency on an arbitrary power, vs. chosen interdependency on those who you choose to deal with. If I don't like my landlord, or my tenant doesn't like me as a landlord, we are not stuck with each other - there are a pool of landlords and a pool of tenants. Same with employment, etc.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

Great index, that assigns numerical values to subjective issues like "corruption" (guess the UN must be expert at evaluating that ) and "press freedom" - considering the way the UN works, I laugh my ass off.

Well it is about the best there is going.

Anyway, Canada took a slide this year after over 10 years at number one - so I guess there'll be some soul searching here.

I'll spend my own money on making my life better, thank you. I don't expect the government to come along and tell me what "makes my life better" then impose it on me.

Yes, when I was growing up the government was consistently at my door telling me what to do.

If they were "better" it'd be a problem. Comparing Norway, a country of less than 5 million, which is currently the third largest exporter of oil and gas in the world, to any other country, is a joke. Especially when the oil and gas resources will start depleting in two decades. The only Norway will have going for it then is foreign invested profits they've been smart enough to set aside.

Norway, Sweden, The Netherlands, Australia, Belgium all come in better than the US this year. How about all those resources the Dutch have?

Why don't you start comparing the US to real countries that don't sit on disproportionate raw resources and only exist in first world status by using their finite resources to subsidize their welfare states?

Just did.

Worse for slackers, yes.

You don't understand. When there was full employment in New Zealand, everyone worked. There weren't any slackers. If there are decent jobs with decent pay then everyone will work, even though they could live quite comfortably off the dole.

The only ones who run scared are sheep. Besides, NZ has a size about that of Colorado, and barely half the population of Los Angeles County.

Do I have to keep saying this? It's the Australians who **** sheep, not us.

Hey, according to Annie Coulter, he's just the perfect studly chunk of manhood.

That woman is utterly deranged.

[Agathon]

You need to read Hobbes, Michael. It's a cure for people who don't believe in coercion.

[Thud]

Didn't cure me, Agathon