The sensible liberal's quandry made easy

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

MtG, I can't belive you deny Switzerland and Sweden having the highest standard of living in the world.

I'll deny it as well . Standard of Living = GDP/capita. The US is only behind Luxembourg (and perhaps Belgium), IIRC.

Nope.

The UN Human Development Index was created to correct this silly notion.

The whole reason that GDP per capita is a dumb measure is that if a huge natural disaster occurs in your area the GDP per capita goes up because of all the repair work that needs to be done. Hardly an increase in SOL is it?

[The Mad Monk]

What does it measure, then?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Americans spend about twice as much per head on health care as Canadians for worse service.

You do realize that most of that is the rich paying for super-expensive treatments which they don't do too much in Canada, right?

Nope. It's overheads.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
What does it measure, then?

A whole host of things - press freedom; governmental corruption, civic freedoms; wealth; etc.


You can read it for free if you like.

http://hdr.undp.org/

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Agathon
The UN Human Development Index.

Yet another font of wisdom from the UN, no doubt.

Yes. You see, if you have public broadcasting and proper regulation the standard goes up.

We have public broadcasting. And lots of private broadcasting other than the commercial networks. And "proper regulation" in general means letting people see what they want, i.e. letting the market decide. That's why our **** TV is so popular elsewhere, that conservatives in other countries whine about cultural contamination, etc.

It doesn't have anything to do with sitting on one's ass. When NZ was at the apex of its experiment with the welfare state unemployment was virtually nil.

And it doesn't have anything to do with self sufficiency either. State healthcare provision is simply more efficient. Americans spend about twice as much per head on health care as Canadians for worse service.

And a huge portion of what Americans spend is directly related to insurance and liability costs, not medical costs. That is, if an MD or hospital ****s up, they can be held accountable through the legal system.

Nations with brains have realised that the fundmental question of government is not how far the state interferes in people's lives, but what is the simplest and most efficient way of delivering the services people want.

Yeah, which is why I've heard plenty of people saying they don't care how much government infringes liberty or privacy or what not, as long as it bribes them with some form of wealth redistribution. Enjoy it, and we'll keep doing things our way, while being the largest economic and geopolitical power in the world.

I've met enough of you. Look at how you do in comparative tests.

Oooooh, next thing you know, you'll be referring to us as "you people." Are you feeling some white man's burden, perhaps? Tests, shmests. We also drive the biggest economy in the world, sorry, so maybe y'all should study for tests less, and work on suceeding in the real world more.

No, the government should be in the "make sure everyone has an opportunity to feed, clothe and house themselves" business.

And as long as it keeps taxes low, barriers low, and markets fair, it succeeds.

Don't be such a *****. -30 isn't that cold.

I spent a winter working up in Montana, mostly outdoors. When you're in -30, I'll be hanging out on the beach getting a tan, using my portable solar panel to power my laptop. Enjoy.

Oh. So that's why the hotel I stayed in in LA last year had a huge notice on your bed telling you not to go outside or open your door. Or why it had a heavily armed security guard in the lobby. Silly me...

Well, if you stay in the nastiest neighborhood in LA, then you're not too bright.

Come on.

Well, you insist there's a vision there.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'll deny it as well . Standard of Living = GDP/capita. The US is only behind Luxembourg (and perhaps Belgium), IIRC.

Silly Siddi - a high GDP per capita can be achieved by slave driving your population for 80 hour weeks for **** pay while all the wealth remains concentrated at the top of the heirarchy.

Working 80 hour weeks for squat while never seeing the money is not my idea of high quality of life.

[Agathon]

Actually this year's report (due out this week) has Canada dropping to equal with the US at 0.937 - can't see why.

This just in the news.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

Yet another font of wisdom from the UN, no doubt.

I'd believe them over you.

We have public broadcasting.

Yes with small letters.

And lots of private broadcasting other than the commercial networks. And "proper regulation" in general means letting people see what they want, i.e. letting the market decide. That's why our **** TV is so popular elsewhere, that conservatives in other countries whine about cultural contamination, etc.

Yes and no. People like the entertainment stuff but also want better news.

And a huge portion of what Americans spend is directly related to insurance and liability costs, not medical costs. That is, if an MD or hospital ****s up, they can be held accountable through the legal system.

YES!!!!!!! And this is one of the great stupidities of the system. Move to a no fault compensation system, it saves millions and leaves doctors to be disciplined by the medical council or the police.

Yeah, which is why I've heard plenty of people saying they don't care how much government infringes liberty or privacy or what not, as long as it bribes them with some form of wealth redistribution. Enjoy it, and we'll keep doing things our way, while being the largest economic and geopolitical power in the world.

It doesn't bother me if you're all too dumb to spend this wealth on making your lives better, but would rather spend it on costly military programs that don't work.

Oooooh, next thing you know, you'll be referring to us as "you people." Are you feeling some white man's burden, perhaps? Tests, shmests. We also drive the biggest economy in the world, sorry, so maybe y'all should study for tests less, and work on suceeding in the real world more.

What's that got to do with it? What's the point of having a bigger economy if you keep getting beat by socialist nations like Norway and Sweden? Those damn commies, how dare they be better.

And as long as it keeps taxes low, barriers low, and markets fair, it succeeds.

It makes things worse.

I spent a winter working up in Montana, mostly outdoors. When you're in -30, I'll be hanging out on the beach getting a tan, using my portable solar panel to power my laptop. Enjoy.

I actually like the cold. I can't stand the heat.

Well, if you stay in the nastiest neighborhood in LA, then you're not too bright.

We have no neighbourhoods like this in NZ.

Well, you insist there's a vision there.

There is, it's just **** Cheney's.

[monolith94]

"I'll send you some pictures of lithe, tanned hot, bikini-clad chicas on the beach a few hundred yards from my house."

Too bad yr married, eh? You make a provocative argument for Mexico as opposed to Vermont, but I know where my heart is. Our breasts my be smaller, but our souls are larger.

Plus, Vermont may have high taxes, but it has a great education system, is not in debt, and is generally well run. Of course the state of Vermont is not like the United States economy wise, but I'm sure Howard Dean understands that...

[Imran Siddiqui]

a high GDP per capita can be achieved by slave driving your population for 80 hour weeks for **** pay while all the wealth remains concentrated at the top of the heirarchy.

Not really. You'd have a tiny wealthy class and a large impoverished class. Because wealth in concentrated by a few in such a system. GDP/capita would be low. For example see Egypt. I'm sure they'd be glad to know that their GDP/capita (adjusted for PPP) of $3,700 is high .

GDP/capita is the definition of standard of living.

What's the point of having a bigger economy if you keep getting beat by socialist nations like Norway and Sweden?

GDP/capita (adjusted for PPP)

US: $36,300
Norway: $31,800
Sweden: $25,400

I think we are kinda kicking ass in the economic department .

We have no neighbourhoods like this in NZ.

You also have no cities .

Los Angeles is also more populous than your ENTIRE COUNTRY .

Actually this year's report (due out this week) has Canada dropping to equal with the US at 0.937

Your own report is going against you, I love it!

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

a high GDP per capita can be achieved by slave driving your population for 80 hour weeks for **** pay while all the wealth remains concentrated at the top of the heirarchy.

Not really. You'd have a tiny wealthy class and a large impoverished class. Because wealth in concentrated by a few in such a system. GDP/capita would be low. For example see Egypt. I'm sure they'd be glad to know that their GDP/capita (adjusted for PPP) of $3,700 is high .

All you would need is a more productive Egyptian workforce. GDP is a measure (roughly) of what is produced, not a distributive measure.

GDP/capita (adjusted for PPP)

US: $36,300
Norway: $31,800
Sweden: $25,400

I think we are kinda kicking ass in the economic department .

Of course, if your poor or lower middle class where are you better off? Probably Scandinavia or Canada.

Los Angeles is also more populous than your ENTIRE COUNTRY .

We have a ghetto bigger than some guys country? Oh yeah, I'd brag about that ... (yes, yes I know LA has SOME nice parts)

[Imran Siddiqui]

GDP is a measure (roughly) of what is produced, not a distributive measure.

Yeah, but you ain't gonna have a high GDP if most people are in poverty and a few guys are all rich. After all, someone's gotta buy the stuff .

Of course, if your poor or lower middle class where are you better off? Probably Scandinavia or Canada.

Neither! California, damn it! Or at least somewhere warm

Anyway, he said that our economy was getting beaten by Norway and Sweden. Showing him that ain't true.

[Spiffor]

Imran:
I assume you are trolling when you pretend that GDP/capita is the only and accurate measure of a population's well being, but...
There is more to the population's well being that the average of the country's production. Well being can be defined by the quality of health, education, environment (in the general meaning), safety, comfort etc. a population is willing to afford.

Should the GDP be misused in this regard, or should it be wildy unequally distributed (such as in the US), it may not serve these goals.

Ask AS or Nationalist (I think there are the only people here who live in impoverished areas) if the quality of life in the US is the best in the world. Maybe you'll hear a different tune that what our businessmen are saying.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I assume you are trolling when you pretend that GDP/capita is the only and accurate measure of a population's well being, but...

I'm not saying it's the ONLY and accurate measure. I'm saying its the BEST measure. The amount of production a society makes divided by the number provides a good measure for the wellbeing of the population.

Should the GDP be misused in this regard, or should it be wildy unequally distributed (such as in the US), it may not serve these goals.

It depends if you think it is 'wildly unequally distributed' in the US. I think not. Sure the top 1% have a lot of dough. But the rest of us are doing just fine, and make more than enough and have a superb quality of life.

When my family was lower middle class (back in the early 80s), we weren't bad off. We were fine! We just didn't spend lavishly.

Ask AS or Nationalist (I think there are the only people here who live in impoverished areas) if the quality of life in the US is the best in the world. Maybe you'll hear a different tune that what our businessmen are saying.

I doubt it (from Nationalist). I'm not sure what Speer would say... but when's the last time you ever thought he was right .

[monolith94]

"(yes, yes I know LA has SOME nice parts)"

No, it doesn't.