The sensible liberal's quandry made easy

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Thud

Moderate?!?! Nader desires nothing less than the complete and total destruction of the American economy! The Green party's platform includes a (mandatory) 40-hour work week! Outrageous! I work more than 40 hours a week during the summer, I'm only 17!

Um, Thud....

I hate to tell you this, but it's the standard in most civilised countries. After 40 hours you get paid overtime.

My wage is well above the minimum, even compeitative with the minimum proposed by the Green party, and I sure as hell couldn't live off off what I make, even if I worked year round. Not to mention that I wouldn't have a job for long with those policies in action. Policies such as this will be the doom of the USA.

Yeah, Canada is doomed, the economy is failing, quick everyone leave before it all falls down.

Oh, wait, isn't that policy in the works for your laughable excuse for a European Constitution? Sorry.

I (currently) live in Canada.

Personally, I'm a little displeased with the shocking and rampant attempt to destroy everything that lives or grows on the part of the Bush Administration, and a Dem (or a Green) would be much better at the enviornment. Other than that, I don't see why I should be motivated to vote Dem. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Ain't broke? The fact that you can work over 40 hours a week for above minimum wage and still not have enough to live on suggests to you that nothing is broken?

Crazy...

I would gladly vote Lieberman in the primary. If he wasn't a baby-killer, I would without question vote for him instead of Bush in the actual election.

A baby killer? Groan.....

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Thud

With an opinion like that, why aren't you a conservative? Don't you know that the Democratic party in America is the one all about class warfare and seperation-of-church-and-state bigotry?

If they actually stuck up for what they are supposed to believe in the Democrats would be all for stopping class warfare by preventing the rape of the poor.

And I don't think I can take the church and state stuff seriously. Not everyone in the US believes in God and not all of those who do believe in the same one. Hence making one religion the state religion and giving it primacy over all the others is a fundamentally stupid idea.

Anyway, religion is just silly. I suppose the state has to humour the cranks who fall for it, but it certainly shouldn't be actively promoted. Likewise, belief in fairies or Atlantis shouldn't be promoted either.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Agathon
What's the point of all that when you are being spanked by Canada, Sweden, Norway, etc. when it comes to living standards? Not much I'd say.

It depends what you call "living standards" but if someone wants to pretend they're ahead, fine by me.

The television is moronic and the papers aren't much better,

And that's a government problem?

crime is high and the social services are a joke.

Hardly, but I guess if you're into sit on your ass and get cradle to grave welfare, things might be tough here, unless you decide to get motivated to be self-sufficient.

And as for education, well.... post nuclear would be the best way of describing it.

Considering there's 50 states, a lot of variability between districts in those states, and private educational systems as well, I somehow doubt you're a real expert.

And I wouldn't house a dog in the shacks some of you live in.

So the government should be in the provide everyone housing business, too?

Face it, Canada is better. The people are nicer and you can walk to the store at 3 in the morning without being mugged.

Canada is a big empty space where you freeze your balls off five months of the year. And I can walk to the store at 3 in the morning everyplace I've ever lived in the US, and here in Tijuana, so Maybe you need to get more knowledge than from watching Schwarzenegger movies or Escape from New York,

The Bush vision of America is one in which the people are well off, ignorant and violent. So far he's winning on the latter counts.

You mean Bush has a vision? I'm glad I'm speaking with one of the administration insiders who knows what it is, because I was under the impression he rather lacked one.

We don't have much crime or pollution and for quite a while had the world's highest living standards. But then the government decided on market reforms and ****ed it all up. But I'd much rather live there than in the US.

Well, if you have no population, and sit on a ****load of natural resources, then it's not too tough. Considering the population and resource levels, you didn't do that great.

Plus we have a decent electoral system which prevents the government screwing us over and leads to much higher voter participation.

Well, the US has to have at least one weakness.

[oedo]

I don´t understand this discussion. regarding the "successes" of Bush´s presidency even a cancer boil should be able to beat him in the next elections. what did Bush actually accomplish for the USA up to now?

- he produced an unbelievable national debt
- he increased unemployness
- he started two wars with two (virtually) disarmed countries, leaving them back in anarchy.
- he continually disrespects or loops out the constitution
- he continually disrespects international treaties
- he destroyed the NATO
- he destroyed America´s international credibility and reputation
- he let a terrible terror-attack happen, although it was was forseable and preventable

can actually anyone name any good thing that GWB did for his country before and during his presidency?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by monolith94
"Then there's that bit about tax rates and spending in the People's Republic of Vermont."

Vermont is a very well run state, fiscally.

Yeah, a small state, low population, little industrial base, but plenty of tourists importing dollars, and Boston and other NE types with second homes, etc.

And the highest personal income tax rate in the US, except it kicks in at a higher income level than Californias, so Vermont really only comes in number two.

A stunningly realistic model for fiscal management of the Federal government.

I'd certainly rather live there than in tijuana or wherever you are.

Good for you. When you're freezing your balls off this winter, I'll send you some pictures of lithe, tanned hot, bikini-clad chicas on the beach a few hundred yards from my house.

To call Vermont a "people's republic" in terms of economics, shows precisely how much you know about Vermont - very little.

A small state with high taxes that relies a lot on capital inflow from out of staters. Yep, sounds about right.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Since when does policy have anything to do with being the nominee? Edwards is young, charismatic, Southern and has a lot of campaign money. Inexperience is the only thing holding him back. Even so, I rate his chances better than Lieberman and Graham.

I'd put my bet on Liebermann-Edwards as the most likely to win ticket in the general election.

[Drake Tungsten]

I'd put my bet on Liebermann-Edwards as the most likely to win ticket in the general election.

I agree. It's not going to happen, though.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I hate to tell you this, but it's the standard in most civilised countries. After 40 hours you get paid overtime.

Um.. Agathon, if would help if you actually READ HIS POST! What does 'mandatory' mean? That's right, no more. He's not complaining because he'll get overtime pay over 40 hours, he's complaining because HE CAN'T WORK AT ALL over 40 hours. I don't think anywhere in the world has a mandatory work ceiling, where you are not allowed to work any more.

But of you just read what you want to .

The fact that you can work over 40 hours a week for above minimum wage and still not have enough to live on suggests to you that nothing is broken?

You have plenty to live on if you work 40 hours a week for minimum wage. But of course, if you gotta have your cable TV and second car, you may run into problems fiscally .

[Odin]

Most Americans are too ignorant to realize Shrub's slip-ups.

MtG, I can't belive you deny Switzerland and Sweden having the highest standard of living in the world. At leat the Swedes get free health care and have no rligious loonys running thier parliment.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Odin
At leat the Swedes get free health care

No one gets free health care.

[Odin]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
No one gets free health care.

Okay, the rich pay MORE for thier healthcare, and people don't have to worry about being ripped by HMO's.

[Drake Tungsten]

Why worry about HMO's when you can get ripped off by the government instead, right?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

It depends what you call "living standards" but if someone wants to pretend they're ahead, fine by me.

The UN Human Development Index.

And that's a government problem?

Yes. You see, if you have public broadcasting and proper regulation the standard goes up.

Hardly, but I guess if you're into sit on your ass and get cradle to grave welfare, things might be tough here, unless you decide to get motivated to be self-sufficient.

It doesn't have anything to do with sitting on one's ass. When NZ was at the apex of its experiment with the welfare state unemployment was virtually nil.

And it doesn't have anything to do with self sufficiency either. State healthcare provision is simply more efficient. Americans spend about twice as much per head on health care as Canadians for worse service.

Nations with brains have realised that the fundmental question of government is not how far the state interferes in people's lives, but what is the simplest and most efficient way of delivering the services people want.

Considering there's 50 states, a lot of variability between districts in those states, and private educational systems as well, I somehow doubt you're a real expert.

I've met enough of you. Look at how you do in comparative tests.

So the government should be in the provide everyone housing business, too?

No, the government should be in the "make sure everyone has an opportunity to feed, clothe and house themselves" business.

Canada is a big empty space where you freeze your balls off five months of the year.

Don't be such a *****. -30 isn't that cold.

And I can walk to the store at 3 in the morning everyplace I've ever lived in the US, and here in Tijuana, so.

Oh. So that's why the hotel I stayed in in LA last year had a huge notice on your bed telling you not to go outside or open your door. Or why it had a heavily armed security guard in the lobby. Silly me...

Maybe you need to get more knowledge than from watching Schwarzenegger movies or Escape from New York,

And maybe you need to stop dissing the welfare state without knowing anything about it. It works. I grew up in one and the principle is quite simple. When the welfare state is in the ascendency everyone does pretty well, there is no abject poverty crime is low and everyone gets a good education. When you start removing the welfare state a minority of people are better off but everyone else slides and poverty, crime, preventable illness and all the other evils come flooding back.

Do you know that In NZ I think I saw in my entire life three homeless people. Only three - the whole time I lived there. New Zealanders who go abroad are often shocked when they realise that chronic homelessness exists.

You mean Bush has a vision? I'm glad I'm speaking with one of the administration insiders who knows what it is, because I was under the impression he rather lacked one.

Come on.

Well, if you have no population, and sit on a ****load of natural resources, then it's not too tough. Considering the population and resource levels, you didn't do that great.

It has nothing to do with that at all. The reason that Canada does so well is that it has a well organised and efficient social system for the distribution of resources. People don't have the knee-jerk fear of the Government that their southern neighbours have and easily accept government provision of services when it would be cheaper.

Well, the US has to have at least one weakness.

If you got rid of it, the rest would follow.

[Imran Siddiqui]

MtG, I can't belive you deny Switzerland and Sweden having the highest standard of living in the world.

I'll deny it as well . Standard of Living = GDP/capita. The US is only behind Luxembourg (and perhaps Belgium), IIRC.

Why worry about HMO's when you can get ripped off by the government instead, right?

Isn't that the same thing... seeing as HMOs were basically created by the government

[Imran Siddiqui]

Americans spend about twice as much per head on health care as Canadians for worse service.

You do realize that most of that is the rich paying for super-expensive treatments which they don't do too much in Canada, right?