Rage against the Machine - Communism Vs. Capitalism (again!)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Survival is part of the nature of man, killing is not. People will only kill if they have to do it to survive. Killing for any other reason is psychopathic.

Welcome to a certain reality of man. There is unfortunately a segment that will be so.

[Velociryx]

That you dislike it has no relevance to its value. I don;t like Tennis. Doesn;t mean tennis has any less inherent value than something I personally like.

True. It's also true that what I don't like (specific to this debate--slipshod implementation of communism, for example) also costs lives for poor implementation. They (the folks who lost their lives) don't like it much either. But they can't voice it anymore.

I'm not saying that a thing lacks value because I don't like it. I am saying that it's of little interest to ME (and therefore, won't be something I spend a lot of time discussing, just as you prolly wouldn't be arsed to spend a lot of time talking turkey about tennis).

And I would disagree 'bout the database being all that's needed. If we're going to talk about a "perfect" communist society, then we need to talk about how the "needed" goods and services get delivered, and if there's rationing (ie - each household is allocated X rolls of toilet paper per month....if you need more, tough), or is it simply "push the button and we bring it to your door" - if so, what is to stop rampant exploitation of the system?


The individual, in the modern sense, has been put first and foremost only in the last 300 years. out of an assumed 100,000 years of homo sapiens sapiens that is an insinificant time of "man's nature".

I would disagree. People have always been putting themselves first.

If I'm a bigger caveman, I take what I want (the best women, the best food, etc). Screw you!

Till you figure out how to build a club. Ahhh, now YOU're the big dog. You get the best women, the best food.

Till I figure out how to make a spear, and our positions reverse themselves.

Then you make a bow.

Then I learn to ride a horse.

One could study the tribal histories of the native americans to get another perspective (ie - different from the european historic perspective). The tribes fought, competed for resources, etc (and Kid, they didn't know capitalism existed! ), and put their own individual needs and wants above the needs and wants of others.

Sometimes, those needs and wants were best met by a spirit of cooperation, sometimes not, but the "me first" attitude is a) nothing new to man and b) nigh on impossible to be rid of--I agree with Og, no matter how much "conditioning" you do, man will revert to type.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Welcome to a certain reality of man. There is unfortunately a segment that will be so.

Agreed. Let's do something about the killing that we have control over. Stop killing for survival. Stop killing for resources. Stop killing for capitalism.

[Velociryx]

Kid:

Yes, I said that it causes mental illness, and I gave you a cite!

You sure did. And per the site you gave me, you are incorrect. AT BEST, poverty is one of a number of components leading to mental illness.

Being one of the components that can cause an illness =/ causing the illness, no matter how much you would love to make it so.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

...and don't forget, stop killing for control....

Which essentially means, change the inherent "me first" nature of man, and we'll be fine, which is what we've been saying all along, which is (again) why communism doesn't work.

-=Vel=-
(ta da!)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

No No Vel

It's OG make Furk. Eat plenty food quickly.

GEPP make Hammur (as in Hammer and Sickle ). Beat Og up and take food since Og welthy (fud wize).

Continue with your analogy from there.

[Velociryx]

Og!

Will have to continue the analogy from home, though I must say, you're off to a fantastic start!....'tis time for me to kiss the workplace g'bye, but! Soon as I get in the door, I'll be lookin' here to see what new stuffage awaits!

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
...and don't forget, stop killing for control....

Which essentially means, change the inherent "me first" nature of man, and we'll be fine, which is what we've been saying all along, which is (again) why communism doesn't work.

-=Vel=-
(ta da!)

I don't believe you can stop that. You better debate with the Utopian Socialists on that. Capitalism kills for control too.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Kid:

Yes, I said that it causes mental illness, and I gave you a cite!

You sure did. And per the site you gave me, you are incorrect. AT BEST, poverty is one of a number of components leading to mental illness.

Being one of the components that can cause an illness =/ causing the illness, no matter how much you would love to make it so.

-=Vel=-

You musta got manure fur yer brains boy!

Seriously, I think you have some serious bias issues.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I don't believe you can stop that. You better debate with the Utopian Socialists on that. Capitalism kills for control too.

Kid,

Just for a second get beyond the latest fad government (meant economic system here) capitalism. All these bad things have happened before. It is not a symptom of the government it is a symptom of man.

No matter how much you try to lay it at the feet of the repressionistic economic system you envision captialism to be, it is there because of the motives that drive man not because of the system. Every form of government enacted has had the same common theme, repression of people in one form or another.

Capitalism doen't repress people, people do.

Always has always will.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Kid,

Just for a second get beyond the latest fad government (meant economic system here) capitalism. All these bad things have happened before. It is not a symptom of the government it is a symptom of man.

No matter how much you try to lay it at the feet of the repressionistic economic system you envision captialism to be, it is there because of the motives that drive man not because of the system. Every form of government enacted has had the same common theme, repression of people in one form or another.

Capitalism doen't repress people, people do.

Always has always will.

Well you must think that feudalism, primative society, capitalism, and communism are all about the same.

[Velociryx]

I don't believe you can stop that.

I don't believe we can stop that either, which is exactly why I frankly hope that your revolution fails miserably, cos there's gonna be a whole lot of killin' going on otherwise.

You musta got manure fur yer brains boy! Seriously, I think you have some serious bias issues

I think you should re-read the article you gave me. Not once does it say that poverty CAUSES mental illness (as you claimed). It says it's a factor (and even one of the numerous major factors). It also says that more than a third of the disorders are behaviorally caused, but hey, don't believe me....go have a look at your article.

Og: Kid can't do that....he has demonstrated that he's so desperate to believe in "his system" that he'll blatantly ignore any factual evidence he's presented with, because "his system" NEEDS capitalism as a boogy man. Innat right, Kid?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

One thing I would like to hear from the communist crowd is this:

Granted, there have been (and are today) tribes and cultures which are essentially communally based.

The tribes in question are so marginalized and failed so completely to innovate and change with the times that they are effectively stone age cultures trapped in a world that modernized around them. Attempts at bringing this "communal outlook" into the modern age (ie - modern implementation of "Communism") have failed utterly and are in varying stages of death and dying.

Human beings are not ants in the hive, nor are they willing members of the Borg Collective, so how do you really expect a communally based, all-join-hands-and-sing-songs-together society to work? What incentives are there for the population to hand over their destinies to the state? Why would that be superior (more "rational") than keeping their fate in their own hands?

-=Vel=-

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Kidicious

Peacefull people are now at a disadvantage. Just change system to a system where peacefull people are not at a disadvantage.

Maybe we can force people to be peaceful!

Seriously, how can you eliminate violence? It's a natural condition, something that is "invented" anew every generation regardless of the values of the society these children are born into.

Let's suppose that a society was determined to elimnate violence. To this end they endlessly repeat that violence is bad to their children, and intervene at school whenever a violent incident occurs by sending the evildoers to counciling. Would this work? Or would abused and neglected children still have a tendency to become more violent than others, their parents perhaps not around to scold them for hitting their brother, or perhaps serving as violent role models. These kids get to school and smack someone, for which they get a lot of attention, negative from their classmates and teachers perhaps, and positive from the counselors. There is a lot of self-perpetuation material here, and we've seen this cycle for a very long time. Tough guy is identified as violent by his peers and teachers / police etc., and accepts the role because it feels right (he feels himself to be bad). He is sent to counseling, but that slow work to become like everyone else 10 years behind schedule can't effectively compete with the excitement of being the bad boy, especially once the bad girls get ahold of him.

You seem to think that we can simply disincentivize violence away, but that idea has had a long history of incomplete success at best to abject failure at worst. It is completely incapable of dealing with various manias and mob violence, social pathologies and psychiatric conditions. We may be able to manage violence, but we are in no position to eliminate it in the least. Just this week I heard people chanting "No Justice, No Peace!"

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Velociryx

The Third World: Is a mish mash of fledgling democracies holding on by their fingernails, and tin-pot dictatorships. About all that anybody can say about the third world is that it's undeveloped at this point.

That is neither the fault of communism or capitalism.

-=Vel=-

Actually the popularity of communism at the end of the Imperial era had a lot to do with the rapid economic decline experienced in so many new states whose leaders had been educated in commie dogma in western universities. Unregulated markets also played their part, as did interference from outsiders and domestic instability. This is a failure so vast it has a hundred fathers.