Israel: This is just the beginning of a Hamas man-hunt.

[Edan]

Originally posted by GePap
Yeah, but they get on the job experience becuase the fact is that the organization survives. The number of dead Israeli drops, but the deaths do not stop.

You gain a temporary advantage, but no concrete victory.

But if we're trying to make Abbas stronger than Hamas, wouldn't making Hamas weaker, even temporarily, in order to give Abbas more of a chance to increase his power be a step in the right direction?

[GePap]

How does this make Abbas stronger? Abbas has little political support from the average Palestinian as is, and if killing hamas leaders means sending missiles into Gaza, which invariably kill some bystander (as it does), then Abbas gains no support, since the average Pal would say: "what do we get for supporting this guy? Restrictions are the same, and we might die walking in the street..."

Viewing this as an inhrently military or security issue is absurd. this is a political issue. If Hamas is so strong in Gaza it is because it has built a wide political base, speically with its charitable works: if you have a probem with housing, or food, whom do you go to? The PLA, or Hamas? (answer, Hamas). The only way the PLA can counter this is by showing that supporting them means a better life than supporting Hamas,. but they can;t do so, not yet.

Israelis always keepsaying that all the PLA has to do is kill Hamas people and act with violence towards the militant and al will be nice, and thne point to 1996 as their example. But the fact is that in 1996, the PLA could show some amount of benefit to its supporters, and even though they cracked down, it wasn;t some killing spree, people were sent to jail. Given the satte of PLA jails at this time, they can hardly do that, and the average Palestinains will not support any palestinain faction that instigates anything like a civil war, becuase they ahve the mentality of a group as one under seige, so anyone that tries to undercut us is trying to sink us all.

[Az]

Actually, as a friend of mine that served in the SOF said, Hamas' military leadership is very inexperienced, and most of it's operations fail. The IJ are much tougher, ( also since they have no other activities besides terror).

However, you have to know that the Hamas will keep reviving no matter how many times you destroy it, if the huge bulk of the Palestinians continues to hate you. This hatred is adressable, and IIUC, Haifa is a perfect example of Jews and Arabs living in harmony, at least until the second intifada begun.

Why so? Hamas never had any problem recruiting suicide bombers. The problem was building explosives, logistics, etc.

[Edan]

Originally posted by GePap
How does this make Abbas stronger?

It doesn't. It makes Hamas weaker. Abbas is the one thats going to make himself stronger.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Azazel
Why so? Hamas never had any problem recruiting suicide bombers. The problem was building explosives, logistics, etc.

Hamas gets much of its money from private donors, not only from Saudi Arabia. They get all their manpower from the Palestinian population. If you don't cut the support, all these elements will rebuild / revive the Hamas. Until either the support itself disappears, or until Israel disappears

[Eli]

Another Hamasnik down in Gaza.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Eli
Another Hamasnik down in Gaza.

Are there bystanders dead as well ?

[Eli]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Are there bystanders dead as well ?

No. There are ~20 injured though.

It wasnt an assasination per se this time. This was a Hamas cell that fired a rocket on Sderot earlier today and there was a hunt after them until the car they were using was somehow located and bombed.

[oedo]

I wish Israel the best of luck in hunting and killing Hamas!

violence causes violence. in the worst case, Isreal will need to kill 3 million Palestines in order to get rid of the Hamas problem. not including those who aren´t born yet.

[Az]

in the best case, the violence will end tommorow.

[Sirotnikov]

However, you have to know that the Hamas will keep reviving no matter how many times you destroy it, if the huge bulk of the Palestinians continues to hate you.

Great solution

1. We bomb and attack Hamas.
2. Create more aplestinain hate.
3. More palestinians join Hamas.
4. repeat until no palestinians left to join hamas

[/cyncism]

But the fact is that in 1996, the PLA could show some amount of benefit to its supporters, and even though they cracked down, it wasn;t some killing spree, people were sent to jail.

they can still show benefit: the moment they begin planning to seriously arrest hamas militants, Israel will begin leaving. Our intelligence is very good.

And they do have enough jails. If they want more, they could build more. They have enough money to rebuild Arafat's chambers for now 10 times in a row.

if you have a probem with housing, or food, whom do you go to? The PLA, or Hamas? (answer, Hamas). The only way the PLA can counter this is by showing that supporting them means a better life than supporting Hamas,. but they can;t do so, not yet.

WRONG

The PA can counter this. And always could. They just never have for two reasons.

1. They are very very very very very corrupted.
2. They intended for Hamas and Jihad to take root.

And if you have any question about the role intended for Hamas in palestinain society by Arafat, just take a look at palestinian text books calling for martyrs and suicide bombers. Look at TV shows calling for martyrs and suciide bombers.

Look at the fact that Arafat called streets and made public holidays after killed Hamas engineer Ihia Ayash, who was responsible for hundreds of dead Israelis. And this was way in the middle of the 90s.

[GePap]

2. They intended for Hamas and Jihad to take root.

I am sorry Siro, but this is just silly. Oh yes, the Socialists aethists of the PLO and its offshoots wanted to foster muslim extremists who hate their ideology just a bit less than they hate the Israelis...

Israel did more to foster these groups in the 1980's than the PLO and PLA ever did at any time.

You are right that the PLA was corrupt, which only scoeres higher points for Hamas (hey look how non-corrupt they are, compared to the PLA!)

Look at the fact that Arafat called streets and made public holidays after killed Hamas engineer Ihia Ayash, who was responsible for hundreds of dead Israelis. And this was way in the middle of the 90s.

Its called pandering to the public for political gains. As for calling for Martyrs, that is something the PLA coopted from the Islamist since they saw it resonated with the public.

[Sirotnikov]

I am sorry Siro, but this is just silly. Oh yes, the Socialists aethists of the PLO and its offshoots wanted to foster muslim extremists who hate their ideology just a bit less than they hate the Israelis...

You put waay to much wieght to the ideals of the PLO and it's off-shoots.

The only ideal they remain close to is that of one united Palestine. Arafat and gang will not overlook any means of abusing and disintegrating Israeli society.

Israel did more to foster these groups in the 1980's than the PLO and PLA ever did at any time.

Excuse me, but I brought solid facts proving PA actions to foster Hamas and PIJ in the palestinian society.

You have brought your opinion, your speculation about Israeli actions and... 0 evidence.

You are right that the PLA was corrupt, which only scoeres higher points for Hamas (hey look how non-corrupt they are, compared to the PLA!)

Yes.

But you choose to ignore, totally because of your rown prejudice, the the major role of PA in promoting Hamas and PIJ.

Its called pandering to the public for political gains. As for calling for Martyrs, that is something the PLA coopted from the Islamist since they saw it resonated with the public.

This is completely idiotic.

Pandering the public, would be saying that it was an illegal action by Israel. Him aligning himself with a Hamas militant proves they are both on the same side of the scale. The moment PA calls for martyrs it is exactly as bad as Hamas, and ideally should be treated exactly the same.


There is absolutely no proof for Hamas resonating in public, in 1993. Hamas had something around 10% support in the Palestinian public in 1993.

Thus in 1995, Arafat was absolutely udner no obligation for public interests to hail the hamas leader. Infact, the absolute majority of palestinains in 1995 were probably against Hamas.

It was only in 2001 that Hamas popularity grew so much. And that was mainly the result of 7 years of brainwashing in school and media.

You (and a bunch of western analytics) continually confuse the reason and the outcome.

Do you know that religious leaders of Hamas was practically invited to give speeches in university campus? Were broadcast live on public TV? (on the only palestinian channel?)

If you want to compare, it would be like Israel would invite Baruch Goldstein to give public speeches, and call streets after him.

Can you imagine that hapenning under a government that is anything but supportive of terrorist activities?

[Sirotnikov]

Imagine the US govt. began promoting anti-gay policies, and begin depicting gays as sons of lucifer, and then justifying it on "pandering the public for political gain".

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

You put waay to much wieght to the ideals of the PLO and it's off-shoots.

The only ideal they remain close to is that of one united Palestine. Arafat and gang will not overlook any means of abusing and disintegrating Israeli society.

And you don;t put enough stock in them. Hamas and these grousp grew in the 1980's. By 1993 they were already politically powerful. they came about pre PLA, not post.

Excuse me, but I brought solid facts proving PA actions to foster Hamas and PIJ in the palestinian society.

You have brought your opinion, your speculation about Israeli actions and... 0 evidence.

Read up on Israel and Hamas (and Islamist in general) in the 1980's. Islamist hated Socialist, the PLO was socialist, Israel saw the PLO as the great threat, while the islamists had done squat terrorism in the territories, so dpon;t get too much int he way of an anti PLO faction within the Palestinians. Thank the Likud in the 80's for that. But you can thank Rabin for then exiling lots of their leadership in Lebanon when the Israeli foudn out that woops, Hamas may hate the PLO but they still hate Israel more..... (you know, sort of like the US and Osama when communism was the "common enemy". )

But you choose to ignore, totally because of your ownprejudice, the the major role of PA in promoting Hamas and PIJ.

Not taking action against, and fostering are two distinct things.

Pandering the public, would be saying that it was an illegal action by Israel. Him aligning himself with a Hamas militant proves they are both on the same side of the scale. The moment PA calls for martyrs it is exactly as bad as Hamas, and ideally should be treated exactly the same.

There is absolutely no proof for Hamas resonating in public, in 1993. Hamas had something around 10% support in the Palestinian public in 1993.

And why would Hamas be that popular in 1993? What had they done? But as time passed, they could position themselves as the ones resiting th Oslo process and "concessions to the Zionists", as well, as the alternative to the corruption of Arafat and his boys. The islamist always do so, they use the corruptness fo the non-religious leaders to point to why "they are better"

Thus in 1995, Arafat was absolutely udner no obligation for public interests to hail the hamas leader. Infact, the absolute majority of palestinains in 1995 were probably against Hamas.

It was only in 2001 that Hamas popularity grew so much. And that was mainly the result of 7 years of brainwashing in school and media.

Yes, and 1995 was before Likud took over (1996) and Oslo begun to slow down. Much changed between 1995 and 2000. as for branwashing by the mdeia and schools: Obviosuly the Pal schools, both those run by the PLA and Hamas have very incendiary materials and stridenyl anti-zionist (and poerhaps also anti-semitic) materials. BUt you, like so many Israelis, seem so readily inclined to believe that the daily experiences of the pals simply could not lead them to hate israelis even without the textbooks. And I find that just silly. People are smart enough to be able to see the difference between real life and books, and if books. If Pal lives and their realtions with Israel and Israelis had been inporving without end in the 1990's then all the textbooks in the world would not have done it.

You (and a bunch of western analytics) continually confuse the reason and the outcome.

Do you know that religious leaders of Hamas was practically invited to give speeches in university campus? Were broadcast live on public TV? (on the only palestinian channel?)

If you want to compare, it would be like Israel would invite Baruch Goldstein to give public speeches, and call streets after him.

Can you imagine that hapenning under a government that is anything but supportive of terrorist activities?

Support for terrorism and support for a politically rival org are two different things, two very different things that you do not seperate, but should be separated. Plus you ignore the fact that Hamas is not only a terrorist organization but a political party and movement.