Israel: This is just the beginning of a Hamas man-hunt.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by rah
Unfortunatly the root cause is Jewish exsistence.

I am sure this could stop, if both sides decide to begin to tolerate each other. The Arabs have much to win with the Israelis, and vice-versa.
The nationalistic and religious hatred could abate quite quickly, at least in Palestine, if the objective reasons to give in to them (economic misery, having relatives killed, houses destroyed, humiliation etc.) would stop.
In history, there have always been important Jew settlements in the Arab world, and the Jews had nearly no problem with their hosts, unlike what happened in Europe. It is not a racial hatred, but merely a hatred that comes from both sides' utter willingness not to sort out things together.

Palestine needs a powerful Abu Mazen at the same time Israel needs a powerful Itzakh (sp ?) Rabin.

[Eli]

Proteus_MST :

Did you see the huge crowds of people around the bombed car? Now imagine 10 Israeli policemen in the middle.
It will end either by lynch or by massacre.

Israel knows the repercussions of assassinations on public opinion and incitement, and arrests are done when possible. Almost always actually. For every terrorist assasinated by Israel, 50 sit in jails. You just never hear about it because it's not worth reporting.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Eli
Proteus_MST :

Did you see the huge crowds of people around the bombed car? Now imagine 10 Israeli policemen in the middle.
It will end either by lynch or by massacre.

Israel knows the repercussions of assassinations on public opinion and incitement, and arrests are done when possible. Almost always actually. For every terrorist assasinated by Israel, 50 sit in jails. You just never hear about it because it's not worth reporting.

Yes.
Of course, this may be the case,
it wouldn´t make sense for german (or european) newspapers/news magazines, to report about every Palestinian arrested, it would make much less interesting news than to report about palestinians (or Israeli) killed and wounded.

But at the same time I also agree with spiffor about the reasons which drive many palestinians into supporting Organizations like Hamas.
I also think, that the one thing both sides are missing is a leader, with the will to peace and respect for the other sides, who is also respected by his own people.

[Az]

Spiffor: of course arabs had no problems, as long as they ran the show ( not to mention that "no problems" is relative to medival times, which say very little).

Hamas won't stop, as long as it exists. And since Abu Mazen won't be doing anything, the only ones left to act are the IDF.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Azazel
And since Abu Mazen won't be doing anything

Why provoke a civil war you're not sure you can win yet? And if Israel keep insisting on cutting Addas off at the knees they are going to have to deal with a monster almost entirely of thier creation on thier own.

[Az]

how exactly will not fighting Hamas help him fight it?

[The diplomat]

------------------------
Jun. 13, 2003
After rejecting ceasefire, Hamas leaders 'marked for death'
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Israel has decided to target top Hamas leaders, including founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin, officials said Friday, confirming a policy change likely to speed up an attack-revenge cycle that has already claimed 46 lives in four days. Israel decided to escalate its war on Hamas after the Islamic militant group last week rejected cease-fire talks, said an Israeli security official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Hamas leaders not previously targeted by Israel in the past 32 months of fighting are now marked for death, the official said. They are considered "ticking bombs" and therefore legitimate targets because they set policy and order attacks on Israelis, the official said.

Avi Pazner, a government spokesman, said "there is no immunity for anybody who either orders or executes terrorist activities." Raanan Gissin, an adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, insisted there was no policy change, but said: "We don't target political leaders, but if those leaders have politics of murder, we go after them."
------------------

read full article here:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1055482890627

It's about time, if you ask me. If the US has the right to hunt down Al Queda, then Israel should have the same right to hunt down every Hamas leader!

I wish Israel the best of luck in hunting and killing Hamas!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Azazel
Spiffor: of course arabs had no problems, as long as they ran the show ( not to mention that "no problems" is relative to medival times, which say very little).

Hamas won't stop, as long as it exists. And since Abu Mazen won't be doing anything, the only ones left to act are the IDF.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with Hamas being attacked, and its activists being arrested or killed. This is a terrorist organization who threatens the Israeli security, and it is obvious the Israelis should fight against it. I have no doubt that the Hamas will tirelessly attack you as long as it exists, and that's why it should eb destroyed. By the IDF if needed.

However, you have to know that the Hamas will keep reviving no matter how many times you destroy it, if the huge bulk of the Palestinians continues to hate you. This hatred is adressable, and IIUC, Haifa is a perfect example of Jews and Arabs living in harmony, at least until the second intifada begun.

Long-sightedness in the relations with the Palestinians is extremely needed, and is one of the indispensable elements of success if you want peace.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST


But the more Palestinians die,
the more support Hamas will get from the palestinian Population
and the more Suicide Attacks will happen.

There was AFAIK a time where there were much less bombings than today, it was the time where there was a glimpse of hope and the Summits at Oslo.

Has the Policy of Retaliation against the Palestinians done anything to lessen the number of Suicide attacks against Israel?
I doubt it.

Absolutely. Since Operation Defensive Shield, the amount of Suicide Bombings have dropped rapidly (Remember that in March 2002 there was pretty much a succesful bombing almost every day and that was before Israel went into the West Bank.

And the Oslo process increased the terrorism, because it allowed Arafat and others to give Hamas and other groups more liberty (and supply them with smuggled weapons and encourage and fund them, etc).
The eight years of the peace process saw far more terrorism than the preceeding eight years.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST So the question is, if there aren´t other ways to get rid of those Hamas Members, maybe for example by Police actions..

Well, Abbas has said he will do no such thing. And when Israel can, Israel does arrest such people. Often, however, the leaders are heavily surrounded by both armed bodyguards and civilians (indeed, they intentionally hide behind civilians) in very crowded areas - meaning that there is a strong likelyhood of a firefight breaking out and causing far more civilian casualties (not to mention that the terrorist would have a good deal of warning when the IDF starts building its forces to go inside.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Haifa is a perfect example of Jews and Arabs living in harmony

I'm pretty sure the Arabs in Haifa don't have textbooks inciting hatred against Jews, as those in the territories do. That is certainly something Abbas could change.

[GePap]

As I said in the other thread, Israel can go around killing Hamas leaders, but what happens? A few months later some guy lowre in the organization comes up an replaces him. The vast majority of suicide bombers coem from the West Bank, which means that even the huge invasions of Pal. terrotory last year and the massive military precense there has NOT destroyed Hamas in the West Bank. Missiles from helicopters can;t possibly do more in Gaza than 20,000 with tanks on the ground can do in the West Bank. Even if Israel risked the huge bloodbath it would entail to assume the same level of control in Gaza as it has in the West Bank, that would still not end Hamas.

Hamas is a political organization with a militant wing. The militant wing can be hurt militarilly, but not the political side, and the political side can always spawn new militant wings. The solution is inherently political in nature. Any action that makes a political solution more difficult in the long run makes a military "victory" impossible.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Edan


I'm pretty sure the Arabs in Haifa don't have textbooks inciting hatred against Jews, as those in the territories do. That is certainly something Abbas could change.

Oh yeah, its all the textbooks..Imagine a little pal kid, waiting a few hours for his family to get through a roadblock, maybe with family in an Israeli prison, or knowing friends or family killed in some way by the violence. Well this kid gets to school (if the schools are open and he isn't forced to be home 24hours a day for a few weeks ue to a curfew), and there he reads a textbook about how the Israelis are just like him, people. And certainly, he will take to heart the lesson from the book much more, than say, the lessons from his life....

Yup, its all about the textbooks.....

[Eli]

Israel can go around killing Hamas leaders, but what happens?

The next leader will rise to power. But he will be 10 years younger, less experienced, the level of the bombs he makes will drop, his knowledge of the area is worse, etc, etc. The result? Overall terror level and quality drops.
This is what happened in Def. Shield, most of the 30-40 years old Lebanon veterans, who built the new infrastructure etc, were captured or killed and replaced by 20 year olds who knew much less.

[GePap]

Yeah, but they get on the job experience becuase the fact is that the organization survives. The number of dead Israeli drops, but the deaths do not stop.

You gain a temporary advantage, but no concrete victory.