President Uribe winning big in Colombia

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez
They have stockpiled a lot. It would take years for them to finish off their reserves!

Your synapses aren't firing, son. Listen carefully: The rebels are receiving the bulk of their funds from drug money. No matter how much they have in reserves (you haven't supported that assertion, btw. How do you know what they have in reserves?), they will still have LESS money to work with if the drug money is cut off. It's not hard to understand.

Legalization for cocaine is not an option and never will be. I would never consider it because the drug is harmful. This isn't marijuana we are talking about.

Marijuana is harmful as well, don't treat it so innocuously. But that's irrelevant. Alcohol is quite harmful, too. None of that speaks to the reasons for legalization. More people are hurt by criminalization of it than would be if it were legal. Legalization will ease suffering.

The Pastrana adminstration in Colombia has tried to negoigation route. You want to know how that turned out? Complete and utter disaster. Not only were the FARC abled to double themselves they increased their money reserves substantially.

You are on some other bizzare wavelength here. Notice how I pointed out, several times, I don't object to using force against the rebels. Legalizing drugs in the U.S. wouldn't effect that at all, except by CUTTING OFF FUNDING FOR THE REBELS, MAKING FIGHTING THEM MUCH EASIER. I don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.

Yes but I still dislike him for the killings he did.

But you tolerate thm because of good economic results. How so very moral of you!

Then what do you suggest? And Colombia does shovel the money over to pay for this equipment.

I've given my suggestion. U.S. ends drug war = disasterous fall in drug prices for cartels = drying up of rebel money sources = rebels go bye-bye after shorter, less deadly campaign. Recipe for success.

So the rebels can use their reserves and the Colombian military is shorthanded equipment, and the war could go on even longer than what I suggest? The rebels will find a way to raise money in different areas.. such as their connections to the drug trade in Peru and Bolivia, where they can easily get money from. How shall you say you solve that?

You aren't paying attention. If the U.S. and other countries ended drug prohibition, it wouldn't matter about the drug trade in other countries... THEIR PROFITS WOULD ALL BE CUT OFF. No one is talking about shortchanging the Colombian military, we're talking about making their job much, much easier by eliminating funding for the rebels, for the UPTEENTH time.

Really, you have no clue what you are talking about.

That's rich. Tell me, where are your numbers backing up your assertions about their reserves? And, Mr. Economist, since you know the rebels are receiving new funding through drug money, why does it not make sense to eliminate that as a source of income?

[JCG]

Originally posted by Pekka
But this really needs all things working inside the country, jobs, new businesses, raise the standard of living and give the people something so they can make it and success. Demand needs to be weakened, without these the all out war is not going to work.

Indeed, those are true concerns, but under the current economic crisis/attempt at reform following IMF guidelines (misguided as always, IMHO) that's going on down there, it'll be a while before those issues can be addressed as they should be.

The government's focus right now seems to be on a) saving money (part of the IMF requirements) b) security (that's why Uribe was elected anyways).

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov




Your synapses aren't firing, son. Listen carefully: The rebels are receiving the bulk of their funds from drug money. No matter how much they have in reserves (you haven't supported that assertion, btw. How do you know what they have in reserves?), they will still have LESS money to work with if the drug money is cut off. It's not hard to understand.

Yes but later I brought up what about other trades they have around the world... they can get money from the Peruvian/Bolivian drug trade.

Marijuana is harmful as well, don't treat it so innocuously. But that's irrelevant. Alcohol is quite harmful, too. None of that speaks to the reasons for legalization. More people are hurt by criminalization of it than would be if it were legal. Legalization will ease suffering.

I disagree with legalization based on ideological reasons. Is that a good enough answer?

You are on some other bizzare wavelength here. Notice how I pointed out, several times, I don't object to using force against the rebels. Legalizing drugs in the U.S. wouldn't effect that at all, except by CUTTING OFF FUNDING FOR THE REBELS, MAKING FIGHTING THEM MUCH EASIER. I don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.

I again disagree with legalization for ideological reasons. I do not believe legalization would solve the problems but actually create more problems.

But you tolerate thm because of good economic results. How so very moral of you!

I hate Hitler. I am not particularily fond of Pinochet anymore. But what he did for the economy is a fact.

I've given my suggestion. U.S. ends drug war = disasterous fall in drug prices for cartels = drying up of rebel money sources = rebels go bye-bye after shorter, less deadly campaign. Recipe for success.

Well the rebels always found ways to get money in other venues.

No one is talking about shortchanging the Colombian military, we're talking about making their job much, much easier by eliminating funding for the rebels, for the UPTEENTH time.

But what about other venues the rebels could take to make profit?

That's rich. Tell me, where are your numbers backing up your assertions about their reserves? And, Mr. Economist, since you know the rebels are receiving new funding through drug money, why does it not make sense to eliminate that as a source of income?

In the article I provided.

[Pekka]

But I don't know, destroying the plants is not that effective IMO. That only brings bad times to farmers, who are surely doing a criminal thing, but are only surviving. They make crap money with it anyway. They need to have other options besides producing coca leafs.

So instead of attacking them, give them good options to produce something else, and focus and direct the attacks to cartels, there villas and production factories.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by JCG


Indeed, those are true concerns, but under the current economic crisis/attempt at reform following IMF guidelines (misguided as always, IMHO) that's going on down there, it'll be a while before those issues can be addressed as they should be.

The government's focus right now seems to be on a) saving money (part of the IMF requirements) b) security (that's why Uribe was elected anyways).

It appears the economic reforms are paying off but more investment is needed. Economic growth returned in a modest +3.8% GDP growth.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pekka
So instead of attacking them, give them good options to produce something else, and focus and direct the attacks to cartels, there villas and production factories.

Uribe was elected on the promise of bringing new jobs to the Colombian people, you know.. better jobs and a more stable agricultural sector for solely legal activity.

He is doing all of this aswell as providing security, which is why I take such great interest in his policies.

[Ecthy]

Fez and Boris trying to get into each other's arse

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Fez and Boris trying to get into each other's arse

He isn't my type.. he is too stubborn.. wait a minute.. I am too stubborn.. but forget it.. no way.. And no I am not changing Euro-boy to Euro-gay.

[JCG]

Originally posted by Fez

It appears the economic reforms are paying off but more investment is needed. Economic growth returned in a modest +3.8% GDP growth.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that several of the harsher economic reforms haven't even gotten out of the Colombian congress/constitutional court though. Let's wait and see what their effect is in a couple of years.

Pekka: Such alternative programs do exist, and have existed for quite a long time. But as you could guess, few drug farmers switch to them because, even with the risks involved in the drug business, it's more likely to turn a profit.

Most that do switch apparently do so in desperation, due to the fumigation campaign (keep in mind, I'm opposed to that, and in theory, I'd support legalization too).

[Pekka]

Originally posted by Fez


Uribe was elected on the promise of bringing new jobs to the Colombian people, you know.. better jobs and a more stable agricultural sector for solely legal activity.

He is doing all of this aswell as providing security, which is why I take such great interest in his policies.

then. It's maybe the toughest part though, to provide those jobs and all that. But it's necessary if they want to win those cartels. But in my opinion he has the right way of doing things.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by JCG


Perhaps, but keep in mind that several of the harsher economic reforms haven't even gotten out of the Colombian congress/constitutional court though. Let's wait and see what their effect is in a couple of years.

Give it time.. Uribe isn't even through his first year in office yet.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Pekka


then. It's maybe the toughest part though, to provide those jobs and all that. But it's necessary if they want to win those cartels. But in my opinion he has the right way of doing things.

Absolutely.

Colombia always has had an huge manufacturing potential.. they do manufacture goods quite a bit but it is way under potential. Infrastructure needs to be improved and he seems to be heading down that path.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez
Yes but later I brought up what about other trades they have around the world... they can get money from the Peruvian/Bolivian drug trade.

And once again, irrelevant, since I'm talking about cutting off the incoming money for all drug cartels. Legalization is the only way to destroy their profits.

I again disagree with legalization for ideological reasons. I do not believe legalization would solve the problems but actually create more problems.

But your ideological reasons are arbitrary. We don't prohibit certain harmful substances, like alcohol and tobacco. We know that legalization in countries where it has occured has not caused these dire consequences, and the elimination of drug cartel profits, most drug-related crime and freeing up prison space for real criminals instead of drug users are all undoubtable benefits.

I hate Hitler. I am not particularily fond of Pinochet anymore. But what he did for the economy is a fact.

So why the love of Franco, if not Pinochet? Franco probably killed more people than Pinochet. Why don't you hate him?

Well the rebels always found ways to get money in other venues.

But what about other venues the rebels could take to make profit?

Their biggest venue, by far, is from drugs. Replacing that amount of profit would be near-impossible. Second, even if they do seek out other venues, does that mean we shouldn't bother destroying the ones they have now?

You're sidestepping all the points and just making non sequitir rants about things nobody is arguing!

In the article I provided.

Oh, you liar. NOWHERE in that article does it provide any mention of how the rebels are funded and what their reserves are.

[Giancarlo]

Edit: Forget it.. I am not responding to this anymore. I have a bad head ache. Please bring it back to the topic of Uribe and the good he has done for his country. He is an excellent leader and there is no doubt at that. I don't want to discuss drug legalization and what not. It won't happen in the US, forget it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
From lawsuits? I can almost see it now. It'd make the tobacco lawsuits look insignifigant.

No, from the fact that their illegal businesses will have outlived their usefulness. Drug cartels, and all the illegal (costly) business that come along with it only exist because there is no simple, legal way for the supply of drugs reaching the demands. Drug cartels are a greatly demanding middleman, who takes money by billions.

Cut off the need of smuggling, hiding, killing etc., and the middleman becomes useless and stops making money.

The only chance of survival of Drug Cartels in case of a legalization is to turn into legal corporations, whose profit margin will be much smaller... Basically, it would kill all the parallel economy of drugs.