President Uribe winning big in Colombia

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
From lawsuits? I can almost see it now. It'd make the tobacco lawsuits look insignifigant.

No, from the huge drop in prices. Drug prices are artificially inflated due to the drug war. End the war, the prices drop dramatically. The cartels would be driven out of business.

[DinoDoc]

Who would produce and distribute the stuff given the legal precedent already set in American courts?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Indeed. What Colombia needs isn't necessarily brute force. It is a group of determined leaders. Uribe looks determined, and I hope he'll manage to make Columbia on the right track, with a mix of better force (there seems to have been many betterments in the Colombia police and army according to the article) AND pragmatism / negociation.

This guy seems genuinely interested in cleaning the Colombian mess. Thumbs up to that

Why don't we forget the drug war for a minute? Uribe is just trying to eliminate his country of drugs and eliminate rebel groups. Is that a problem? He is doing it with force. That is a fact. That is why he is enlarging the military. But he is also a determined and tough leader.

I know several Colombians and they are sick of the direction their country took in the past. The economy was in a mess until Uribe stepped in. His measures will hold in my opinion.

Legalization of drugs is not an option.

Boris:

No, from the huge drop in prices. Drug prices are artificially inflated due to the drug war. End the war, the prices drop dramatically. The cartels would be driven out of business.

NOTHING is ending the drug war in Colombia. The rebels already have their arms so they need to be terminated.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez
NOTHING is ending the drug war in Colombia. The rebels already have their arms so they need to be terminated.

But the rebel groups are receiving their funding from the drug cartels. Weapons alone do not an insurgency make. The logistics of operating these large rebel campaigns relies on a huge amount of funding. Cutting off that funding would cripple the rebels, enabling a very swift, easy defeat.

Win-win.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


But the rebel groups are receiving their funding from the drug cartels. Weapons alone do not an insurgency make. The logistics of operating these large rebel campaigns relies on a huge amount of funding. Cutting off that funding would cripple the rebels, enabling a very swift, easy defeat.

Win-win.

Actually the rebels already have weapons, and plenty of reserves. And they get their money from extortion and kidnapping amongst other things.

I think what Uribe is doing is right. No negoiations. Just unleash a massive military campaign.

You have a problem with that? This man is one of my heroes.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez
Actually the rebels already have weapons, and plenty of reserves. And they get their money from extortion and kidnapping amongst other things.

Did you not read what I wrote? Weapons alone don't make an insurgency.

And do you think that the money these rebels get from extortion/kidnapping remotely compares to what they make from the drug trade? No way--those things are a drop in the bucket compared to drug money.

I think what Uribe is doing is right. No negoiations. Just unleash a massive military campaign.

You have a problem with that? This man is one of my heroes.

I have no problem with him combatting the rebels, but his job would be made much easier if the rebels were cut off at the knees, and fewer people on both sides would have to die for it. Isn't that preferable?

And I don't put much stock in your heroes, since you also idolize murdering butchers like Pinochet and Franco. If anything, that tends to make me suspicious of Uribe.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Did you not read what I wrote? Weapons alone don't make an insurgency.

And do you think that the money these rebels get from extortion/kidnapping remotely compares to what they make from the drug trade? No way--those things are a drop in the bucket compared to drug money.

Well lets just say they have plenty of reserves as I said of cash.

I have no problem with him combatting the rebels, but his job would be made much easier if the rebels were cut off at the knees, and fewer people on both sides would have to die for it. Isn't that preferable?

He is cutting them off at the knees and is taking decisive action. No, what you describe is not preferable.

And I don't put much stock in your heroes, since you also idolize murdering butchers like Pinochet and Franco. If anything, that tends to make me suspicious of Uribe.

I don't like Pinochet, only his economic policies.

Foolish you.. always putting your trust in weak leaders. Who would you want in office in Colombia? Pastrana? The man who only talked but didn't produce any results? The man who gave away half of his country to rebels for negioiations that went nowhere? Oh please.

You cannot talk with the FARC or ELN. You have to kill them all for the criminals they are.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez
Well lets just say they have plenty of reserves as I said of cash.

Your lack of logic is astounding. We shouldn't attempt to cut off funding because they have reserves of cash? So I guess it was nonsensical for the Bush Administration to cut off sources of Al Queda funding, because they happened to have reserves? You make no sense.

He is cutting them off at the knees and is taking decisive action. No, what you describe is not preferable.

Why not? You would still get the bloody combat campaign that you seem to crave, it would just be shorter and easier, because the rebels would have no money. Mr. Economist, why does it not make sense to eliminate funding for the rebels while combatting them? It is patently illogical (your favorite term) to do otherwise, unless you're just blood-thirsty and want the war to drag on for years longer than needed.

I don't like Pinochet, only his economic policies.

You excused Pinochet's murders because he brought about what you thought were good economic changes. So I am baffled by your previous condemnation of Hitler, because although he was a murdering sociopath, at least he brought about good economic times for the Fatherland.

Foolish you.. always putting your trust in weak leaders. Who would you want in office in Colombia? Pastrana? The man who only talked but didn't produce any results? The man who gave away half of his country to rebels for negioiations that went nowhere? Oh please.

Who says I don't support what Uribe is doing? Where did I say he should go soft? All I said is that it would be of even greater benefit to his campaign against the rebels if their source of funding was cut off by ending the stupid drug war. You and the drug bosses are in the same bed with regards to legalization, you are aware of this, yes?

You cannot talk with the FARC or ELN. You have to kill them all for the criminals they are.

Rest my case. Bloodthirsty, aren't ya? Don't froth too much at the mouth when you see the footage of people being slaughtered. I can send you some pics from the Congo if you want to get off more.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Your lack of logic is astounding. We shouldn't attempt to cut off funding because they have reserves of cash? So I guess it was nonsensical for the Bush Administration to cut off sources of Al Queda funding, because they happened to have reserves? You make no sense.

Because much of their money is in Colombia itself.

Why not? You would still get the bloody combat campaign that you seem to crave, it would just be shorter and easier, because the rebels would have no money. Mr. Economist, why does it not make sense to eliminate funding for the rebels while combatting them? It is patently illogical (your favorite term) to do otherwise, unless you're just blood-thirsty and want the war to drag on for years longer than needed.

How exactly do you eliminate funding then? Uribe is tackling that issue aswell. Trying to find ways to get to the cash.. however how would you do that? You say legalization. This is cocaine we are talking about, not marijuana. And legalization is not an option.

You excused Pinochet's murders because he brought about what you thought were good economic changes. So I am baffled by your previous condemnation of Hitler, because although he was a murdering sociopath, at least he brought about good economic times for the Fatherland.

I never excused Pinochet's murders. That is something I will not do. So stop comparing me to Hitler, you brainless ****.

Who says I don't support what Uribe is doing? Where did I say he should go soft? All I said is that it would be of even greater benefit to his campaign against the rebels if their source of funding was cut off by ending the stupid drug war. You and the drug bosses are in the same bed with regards to legalization, you are aware of this, yes?

The reason Colombia got a major military package of Black Hawks and other equipment was because of the drug war. You want to end this?

Rest my case. Bloodthirsty, aren't ya? Don't froth too much at the mouth when you see the footage of people being slaughtered. I can send you some pics from the Congo if you want to get off more.

The rebels are illegal combatants and are not allowed to exist in Colombia. Therefore they should be captured, if they resist killed.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez
Because much of their money is in Colombia itself.

Helloooooooooo. Q: Where is this money from? A: the drug cartels. You say they have reserves. Well, reserves get depleted, especially when there is no new money coming in, thanks to eliminating the profits of drug dealing. Very simple.

How exactly do you eliminate funding then? Uribe is tackling that issue aswell. Trying to find ways to get to the cash.. however how would you do that? You say legalization. This is cocaine we are talking about, not marijuana. And legalization is not an option.

The only rationalization people like you give to legalization not being an option is because you just don't want it to be legal.

The drug war has been waged unsuccessfully for 20 years. In that time, the U.S. alone has spent hundreds of billions of dollars in its useless efforts. In the meantime, drug use has remained at the same levels, crime related to drug dealing has gone through the roof, and the drug cartels have seen ever-increasing profits. We've tried the "war" solution, it has failed, miserably. It's time to try something different, regardless of what brainless fascists think.

I never excused Pinochet's murders. That is something I will not do. So stop comparing me to Hitler, you brainless ****.

You said, when confronted with Pinochet's murders, that "at least he improved the economy." Speaks for itself.

And I didn't compare YOU to Hitler, I said that by your logic, you should at least admire him as you do Pinochet. Don't flatter yourself.

The reason Colombia got a major military package of Black Hawks and other equipment was because of the drug war. You want to end this?

Ladies and gentleman, here you have it: Fez wants the drug war to drag on so Colombia can get more military equipment. If you don't see how blatantly immoral this is, you are hopeless. Thousands die every year in the drug wars, of COURSE I want it to end. If Colombia didn't have to fight the war anymore, they wouldn't NEED the helicopters. Or, here's an idea: maybe if they want helicopters, they should buy them themselves?

The rebels are illegal combatants and are not allowed to exist in Colombia. Therefore they should be captured, if they resist killed.

This isn't an issue. We're talking about making the job of getting rid of the rebels easiest. If what is easiest (least expensive, least time consuming and least destructive to both property and lives) is ending the drug war, thus cutting off their funding and making them far easier to wipe out, isn't that best? Oh no, you wouldn't think so, you like war because it means Colombia gets cool military toys to play with, people dying not withstanding.

Unbelievable.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Helloooooooooo. Q: Where is this money from? A: the drug cartels. You say they have reserves. Well, reserves get depleted, especially when there is no new money coming in, thanks to eliminating the profits of drug dealing. Very simple.

They have stockpiled a lot. It would take years for them to finish off their reserves!

The only rationalization people like you give to legalization not being an option is because you just don't want it to be legal.

Legalization for cocaine is not an option and never will be. I would never consider it because the drug is harmful. This isn't marijuana we are talking about.

The drug war has been waged unsuccessfully for 20 years. In that time, the U.S. alone has spent hundreds of billions of dollars in its useless efforts. In the meantime, drug use has remained at the same levels, crime related to drug dealing has gone through the roof, and the drug cartels have seen ever-increasing profits. We've tried the "war" solution, it has failed, miserably. It's time to try something different, regardless of what brainless fascists think.

The Pastrana adminstration in Colombia has tried to negoigation route. You want to know how that turned out? Complete and utter disaster. Not only were the FARC abled to double themselves they increased their money reserves substantially.

You said, when confronted with Pinochet's murders, that "at least he improved the economy." Speaks for itself.

Yes but I still dislike him for the killings he did.

And I didn't compare YOU to Hitler, I said that by your logic, you should at least admire him as you do Pinochet. Don't flatter yourself.

Hell no.

Ladies and gentleman, here you have it: Fez wants the drug war to drag on so Colombia can get more military equipment. If you don't see how blatantly immoral this is, you are hopeless. Thousands die every year in the drug wars, of COURSE I want it to end. If Colombia didn't have to fight the war anymore, they wouldn't NEED the helicopters. Or, here's an idea: maybe if they want helicopters, they should buy them themselves?

Then what do you suggest? And Colombia does shovel the money over to pay for this equipment.

This isn't an issue. We're talking about making the job of getting rid of the rebels easiest. If what is easiest (least expensive, least time consuming and least destructive to both property and lives) is ending the drug war, thus cutting off their funding and making them far easier to wipe out, isn't that best? Oh no, you wouldn't think so, you like war because it means Colombia gets cool military toys to play with, people dying not withstanding.

Unbelievable.

So the rebels can use their reserves and the Colombian military is shorthanded equipment, and the war could go on even longer than what I suggest? The rebels will find a way to raise money in different areas.. such as their connections to the drug trade in Peru and Bolivia, where they can easily get money from. How shall you say you solve that?

Really, you have no clue what you are talking about.

[DinoDoc]

/me feels ignored

[Pekka]

The big problem in Columbia is that there is no jobs, or good standard of living. Most people are poor as hell, and the ones living in country side, they can live ok if they produce coca leafs and sell them to cartels. There's nothing much else they can really do, so there's always going to be cocaine. Cartels have lots of money, maybe more than the goverment, and everything else needed to run the show. They have big clients in the US, and they keep wanting more of that cocaine, so there's the demand in all stages. It's gone far too long to hope this would stop. That's why IMO all out war is the only option, but we just need to kick it up few notches. Just throw napalm in the air and plainly kill them all.
Or we can have that forever lasting guerilla war. Stopping the war is not an option at this point, since they have way too much power and money, and looks like they can survive small wars too. Determined attack to save no one could give serious results. Multiple attack with fighters and ground troops, save no ammo, take no prisoners.

Surely they will move to bordering countries, but we make them allies with this, and make deals that we can enter their countries to attack these people, with co-operatin with the local authorities. If there are corrupt people in the forces, round them up with and save the ones that turns around to give information, the ones who keeps their yaps shut, well just bullet in the neck.

THey are far too hardcore to be negotiated with. Maybe earlier, but now it's impossible. But they would need few strong leaders who keeps up the pace, and makes the people come in their side too, and not be intimitated by the criminals. They must also prevent the lynching mob thing, since then it gets out of the hands and innocents die. I'd say it's over in few years, just STRONG attacks that have that fire, evil intentions to wipe them out literally. With this there needs to be plan what the farmers etc poor people could do, to make a living so they don't feel betrayed. Then we can attack the demand in the US and other countries, because it's harder to kill.

[Pekka]

But this really needs all things working inside the country, jobs, new businesses, raise the standard of living and give the people something so they can make it and success. Demand needs to be weakened, without these the all out war is not going to work.

[JCG]

They'll have to sit down and come to negotiations in the medium-long term, even if most likely not during the Uribe government.

Still, it's good that the FARC feel some pressure, even if obviously they will not be erradicated in practice (and that's not a good idea even in theory either...).

Even without the drug war, I'd doubt the US (at least under the current administration/a similar one) would simply stop all military aid/sales to Colombia.