You're a naughty boy Tony!

[Whaleboy]

Stinger:

Doesnt work like that I'm afriad.

Bliar is seen as representative of the Labour party, he has always been one of the most, if not the most public face of the entire movement. Labour messes up, Blair messes up.

"The left of the labour party probably hate Tony Balir more than the Tories"

Blair seems more Thatcherite than Major!!

"The left in Britain have always had a problem with the US and with anyone who shows any signs of not agreeing with 50 year old socialist ideas"

Do you understand the left, and the diverse "left" movements in the UK? We're not all the same you know .Those 50 year old socialist ideals have largely been abandoned by many, instead replaced after the failure of Stalinism, a more libertarian approach has been adopted by many... the totalitarian and undemocratic nature of the "old school socialism" that many in the right still use to tar the entire movement with, is part of the reason for its own failure, and we have moved on. The question is.. has the right moved on? I doubt it.

[Whaleboy]

"The WMD thing will blow over Claire Short has no credibility and Cook still thinks he can be PM"

Unlikely. WMD will remain a problem for Blair as long as they are not found in Iraq. Wouldnt suprise me if they fabricate them, because personally, I doubt they will ever be found, put yourself in Saddams shoes, it makes most sense to have destroyed them years ago. However, it will continue to remain something of a problem for Blair as long as he is in power, and most likely for history, as the WMD issue shows that he went to war on a speculation, which he told us was true.

It is that that is the real issue, and the real problem I have with Blair right now (besides the usual).

By the way, I know many in the right seem to think that they left seems to moan about everything, but hopefully, one will soon realise that we have our reasons... boy do we have our reasons!!

[Solly]

The question is.. has the right moved on? I doubt it.

If you mean the right as in the Conservatives, no.

If you mean the right as in free-market; pro-capitalist, -free-trade and -labour flexibility; we hardly need to move on.

[TheStinger]

The left in the UK are always talking about betrayal and that is one of its problems. Look at the fuss over foundation hospitals, there has to be a better way of running the NHS. However because the option are very different to how it was conceived in the 1940's then people are accused of betraying the legacy.

I know the left has many diverse elements and the vast majority can't stand the US. This includes old school lefties like Tony Benn, old school right wing labour members like Healy. It also includes the new left of Cook and Short.

As to whether the right has moved on no it hasn't the right can't get over the image of being Mean and moralistic, thats their problem though.

Also saying Blair is more thatcherite than Major is nonsense. Blair is a strong leader and bypases the cabinet which is how Thatcher operated, howver on economic and social policy thaey are miles apart. John Major was not a Thatcherite either but he is certainly more right wing than Blair.

[Whaleboy]

I mean the people that tend to critisise the left based on the political and philosophical status of that various movements that make up what the right describes as "the left". For example, those that misrepresent us as having "50 year old ideals", implying stalinism and failed examples of socialism.

[TheStinger]

I'm not even thinking of Stalinism.

I think Tony Benn to be a complete pillock but I would never think he supprted Stalin.

By the way you seem to imply I am of the right I'm not

[Whaleboy]

"Look at the fuss over foundation hospitals"

Read Captive State by George Monboit. The fuss is in part because it creates a less efficient service, there was an example in coventry where two NHS hospitals needed repair work. Under the PFI, the repair costs several times that of the state, and all wasting taxpayers money. It would demolish the most effective hospital, and capitalise on an out-of-town site which people will find harder to get to, but it has land ripe for development and will be more profitable. That, we can safely say, sucks. It is an example of how the interests of the taxpayer and the public are being put at odds with the interests of corporations. That is not the governments job. Free market is a double edged sword, not only can the government not stop them, it shuoldnt actively help them either.

"talking about betrayal and that is one of its problems"

True, but then, New Labour has gone on something of a right-ward journey. Can you blame the traditional labour people for feeling betrayed?

"I know the left has many diverse elements and the vast majority can't stand the US."

I think thats a little too far, while I do not speak for the entire left, I am sure that while we have complaints, and valid complaints against the US, as well as fundamental problems with that nation, we can live with it. The question is, can it live with us?

" As to whether the right has moved on no it hasn't the right can't get over the image of being Mean and moralistic, thats their problem though"

I thought the right meant a complete lack of morals? jk

I wont repeat my point of view over and over, but see the link in my sig (I'll replace the article with a newer one soon). It shows how I and others like me are actually probably more right than left, but still, left (the one dimensional political spectrum is so limiting. A hypercube would be better).

" Also saying Blair is more thatcherite than Major is nonsense. Blair is a strong leader and bypases the cabinet which is how Thatcher operated, howver on economic and social policy thaey are miles apart. John Major was not a Thatcherite either but he is certainly more right wing than Blair"

PFI

[Whaleboy]

"I'm not even thinking of Stalinism."

I always say Stalinism where people otherwise say communism, to mean Russias system through that part of the 20th century. Communism is far more diverse than Stalinism, it is unfair to paint that entire movement with the same brush.

"I think Tony Benn to be a complete pillock but I would never think he supprted Stalin."

What he do?

"By the way you seem to imply I am of the right I'm not"

My apologies, not my intention, you appear to be fairly neutral in the matter of right vs left. Like I said, I think its more than just one dimensional.

[TheStinger]

PFI is more Brown than Blair. No Thatcher or Major government would seek to regulate private sector pay.

On hospitals, I have no idea if foundation hospitals are the right way top go, I do know the current syatem is an inefficient mess. Something has to be done other than spending more money. This amongst a large number on the left is heresey.

[TheStinger]

Tony Benn is a nice guy who with IMHO has been wrong on nearly every issue in the last 50 years. Because he is an affable sort of chap people now seem to forget he is very hard left and would have severly damaged our country if he ever got real power.

Concorde was good though

[Whaleboy]

Agreed, the way that the NHS is run is pants, but then, it is not inherent to the NHS, and Blair would be better off copying the German model.

Foundation hospitals are a good idea for those that succeed, and a bad idea for the majority of the mediocre hospitals. If the situation was reversed and there was a majority of high class hospitals, vs a minority of mediocre ones, then it would be a good idea, as it would encourage the mediocre ones to improve, and also highlight them for more government funding.

The way it will go in this day and age, will be the few getting better rapidly, and the many getting worse slowly.

[Whaleboy]

"Tony Benn is a nice guy who with IMHO has been wrong on nearly every issue in the last 50 years"

I dont know much about Tony Benn so I cant answer that, I will look into it.

He does seem like a nice chap though, however, so does Bush.

[TheStinger]

Is germany run on social insurance. Because that is seen as betrayal by some.

[Whaleboy]

I think its a far more efficient and egalitarian solution. One reason I for one am not an old school socialist, I dont believe that everything should be rigidly public funded and a one size fits all system.

Id actually and ideally prefer a system where people choose to pay tax, and by that, they choose whether to accept public services, thus placing public services at competition with private, making it better for all (of course nothing to stop the government from going into business ). Of course, that probably wont happen in my lifetime, but doesnt make it less viable. Not your typical leftist response eh?

[TheStinger]

There the sort of comments that would come back to haunt you if you ever entered politics in latter life.