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Washington Warmongering Undermining Iranian Reform

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Kropotkin
    If the soviet economic system was so inferior there wouldn't be any need for the arms race, instead an arms race only would lead to risks of a nuclear war.
    Well Reagan's arms race brought some extra pressure on the system. But the USSR could have just frozen its military spending. It could have reverted to a more authoritarian system, as shown in the failed coup attempt against Gorbachev.

    Of course, Reagan the Sovietslayer and inevitable Soviet autocollapse are both pushed by the rightwingers - logic has never deterred left- or rightwing ideologues from believing in those fairy tales they love so much.
    “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

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    • #92
      Originally posted by DanS
      The US can actually do a lot pretty much in the open. We did it successfully in Serbia just a couple of years ago.
      Is Iran about to deport 20% of its population perhaps?

      And I think many Americans tend to over-estimate US' role in bringing down Milosevic.
      DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

      Comment

      • #93
        I overlooked that DanS quote.
        “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

        Comment

        • #94
          Milosevic did not have half the control over the security apparatus that the Mullahs in Iran do.

          I do think that a new revolution in Iran may be coming within 10-20 years. I don;t expect the new Iranian government after that to be less nuclear happy than the current one, anymore than Pak's few democratic governments were lss nuclear happy than the military ones.
          If you don't like reality, change it! me
          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

          Comment

          • #95
            Think about it Dan. I'm not going to provide a link for this one.

            Richelieu: You don't have to provide a link. Examples will do.

            I think your position relies on the thought that if we just stay quiet, the bad things will pass over time. As an old Amnesty letter writer, that just doesn't sit well with me as a policy.

            Is Iran about to deport 20% of its population perhaps?

            Colon: You're thinking Kosovo. I'm thinking of the elections afterwards.

            And I think many Americans tend to over-estimate US' role in bringing down Milosevic.

            We contributed to it. Nothing more. We spent about $15 million openly (political organization classes for activists and the like). Don't know how much covertly (cell phones for activists and the like).
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

            Comment

            • #96
              Is Iran about to deport 20% of its population perhaps?
              Exactly... but the American misinformation machine will have you believe they were exterminated in Serbian death camps.
              To us, it is the BEAST.

              Comment

              • #97
                Originally posted by DanS
                Don't know how much covertly (cell phones for activists and the like).


                Well at least I can be sure now that you're mostly joking.
                “Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)

                Comment

                • #98
                  Not joking at all. All of this organizational and propaganda equipment was helpful in bringing Milosevic down.

                  Training, polling, equipment are the bread and butter of a good campaign. The equipment was also helpful in sealing the deal afterward.
                  Last edited by DanS; May 29, 2003, 10:54.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment

                  • #99
                    Originally posted by DanS
                    Is Iran about to deport 20% of its population perhaps?

                    Colon: You're thinking Kosovo. I'm thinking of the elections afterwards.

                    We contributed to it. Nothing more. We spent about $15 million openly (political organization classes for activists and the like). Don't know how much covertly (cell phones for activists and the like).
                    The elections wouldn't have been held if it weren't for the calamnity in Kosovo and neither would the US have supported domestic opposition. Or at least it wouldn't have had the pretext to do so openly.
                    When it comes to foreign influence, what really clinched Milosevic fall was when Putin said he could shove it.

                    All in all, there's little that compares Serbia to Iran.
                    DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

                    Comment

                    • #100
                      Kvak!
                      Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                      Comment

                      • #101
                        Originally posted by Oerdin
                        Kvak!
                        DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

                        Comment

                        • #102
                          I don't agree, yet. What's happening in Iran has been going on for a long time, well before Bush's administration. We've seen the failure of democracy in Iran, as it is now clear that it is run by an oligarchy which doesn't give a damn about democracy. In fact the reform movement has played an important part in the operations of the mullahs, by disguising the true attitudes and actions of the regime. Thus the bad boys in Iran support terror on an industrial scale and pursue nuclear weapons and missles while the Iranian on the street as well as the international community get caught up in the melodrama in parliment. But it's the mullahs who write that script, and they only trot out poor Khatami when they have to explain something to their people or the rest of the world. I doubt that he really knows what is going on half the time.
                          I really disagree with your opinion of the reformists. To say that are basically puppets by Khameini et al. is absurd. The reforms are pretty damn far from superficial; hell Iran is more free than most states in the region - including our allies.

                          They've had some serious setbacks, sure, but they've been close to bringing about serious political change a few times in the past couple years. The ammo we've been giving the Mullahs ever since 9/11 has been absolutely pivotal in tipping the balance against the reform movement.

                          If Khatami and the reformists actually manage to discredit the government by resigning without being labelled American-funded instigators, etc., etc., with any credibility, honestly, I think the Iranian state would have a revolution on its hands.
                          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                          -Bokonon

                          Comment

                          • #103
                            If Khatami and the reformists actually manage to discredit the government by resigning without being labelled American-funded instigators, etc., etc., with any credibility, honestly, I think the Iranian state would have a revolution on its hands.


                            Totally doubt it. It wouldn't matter worth a damn if they resigned. The Mullahs control everything and the military is on their side. Let Khatami resign, it wouldn't matter.
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                            • #104
                              The Shah controlled everything, and the military was on his side.
                              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                              -Bokonon

                              Comment

                              • #105
                                The ammo we've been giving the Mullahs ever since 9/11 has been absolutely pivotal in tipping the balance against the reform movement.

                                What evidence do you have for this?
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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