Road map: stupidest peace plan ever

[Az]

Just say what you want to say. You left me completely in the dark with this "smart" comment.

[GePap]

It isn;t smart. It is jus the truth:

Here are some other truths:

For most of the wrld, for the vast majority of humanity, this conflict is nothing but a TV show. They will live thier lives, only very rarely ever affected directly by it (even 9/11 is an inderect effect, and a transiatory one). I will porbalby live, have a fmaily, and die, and all that the ME conflict will ever be for me is a bunch of people dead on TV, with no more real significance than the vastly bloodeir things happening elsewhere. I can comment on it, but I sure as hell won;t be too affected, and neither will 90% of posters here.

In 100 years I will most likely be dead, as will everyone else here. And in a few more centuries whatever states Israel is in, and Palestine, that will have cnahged too, and a bit after that, all the happens today might as well be a trivia question.

And what greater treasure do the Palestinans give you, and you the Palestians, than proving each other right? So the Palestinians are barbaric, don;t care about life, hate Jews, are evil, so forth and so on: does it not do you a great favor for them to act that way? After all, as long as they act so, YOU GUYS WERE RIGHT, and all you did to them, well, that was right too. Maybe you were not nice, but at least, you were correct. And if the Palestinains see you as theives, as oppressors, as people bent of breaking them and enlsaving them: well, THEY WERE RIGHT, no? And all they did to you, well, that was right too. Maybe they were not nice, but at least, they were correct.


You know, let people despair. Most of us should not care, it will not really affect us. So perhaps, by continuing to think there is no better way, or perhaps, all you have to do is be just a bit more ruthless and thus have a direct win (and the same applies to them , of course) and then it might all be over. It i your lives to live in fear and discomfort. Go ahead, lige them thus. Surely, as long as you are right about them, and them about you, everyone can die happy, knowing they were on the side of right....

[Eli]

Originally posted by Azazel
I know that, Eli. but:

a) I think it's unfair. Why are we allowed to have one while they dont?
b) Why should I care?

a) Fair?

b) How exactly are you going to stop a Palestinian thrust westwards from Tul Karem or Kalkilia, especially in the middle of a total war on some other front or two?
Remember 1973? Now add to that couple divisions on flat grounds surrounding Tel Aviv.

An Arab army 10km from Tel Aviv? How long will they resist the temptation?

[Az]

a couple of divisions.

"remember 73"

these things are completely incomparible.


GePap

[GePap]

Yeah, whatever. Perhaps israelis and Palestinians are getting exactly what each people deserves.

[Az]

GePap: I honestly don't know what the **** are you talking about.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Azazel
a couple of divisions.

"remember 73"

these things are completely incomparible.

There is no chance in hell that, when an opportunity arises, an Arab army at such a perfect condition will miss the chance.

I cant believe i'm trying to convince you on this issue. Just look on the map. As soon as Palestine is allowed to have an army, hostile elements(starts with an I, ends with an N and has RA in the middle) will try to strengthen this army as much as possible.

[Az]

and how will it get here? Through the US-held Iraq, and then through Jordan?

Try again. We will see any formation of an attacking force days before it is strike-capable. Then, we'll demand it to be removed, then we'll destroy it.

Comparing the situation to 73' is ignorant, really.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Azazel
GePap: I honestly don't know what the **** are you talking about.

juts look at the thread: a bunch of people whinning about how peace can never be had, it is impossible. i mean, just look at Eli: "an Arab army could never resist", What great bolt of lightning gave him that brilliant notion? A bolt of prejudice perhaps, but surely not one of intelliegence.

Most people on this thread probalby want this plan to fail. Hell, if it does fail they were right! (its the same thing said against people who ooposed the War on iraq by the supporters, and it can be true). No oe here is really willing to thin k that perhaps, while not easy, while very very hard, this could work. Everyone here is far more comforttable thinking it will fail, because they have put so much stock into thinking the other side must be inherently wong and evil, that if this plan were ever to work, it might, just might, prove them wrong, and goodness me, that simply can't be allowed!

(I can see all the people waiting to climb in and say this back to me about Iraq. Go ahead, but PM it, so I can be frank with them there)

[Az]

Most people on this thread probalby want this plan to fail.

Well, it depends on how do you define the targets of this plan. is it "To create a palestinian state" or is it "To bring peace to the middle east" or is it something else?

I don't think that Eli, for example, would mind the creation of a palestinian state, if he could know that it would REALLY bring peace. Thing is, he's deeply untrusting of the other side.

(I can see all the people waiting to climb in and say this back to me about Iraq. Go ahead, but PM it, so I can be frank with them there)

you can be frank here, too. That's what Internet Forums are for. I, personally, don't think that you want Iraqi reconstruction to fail. If I am wrong, don't be afraid to say so. I'd be dissapointed, and I'd like to debate you, but I think that this thread's original topic is more interesting, at this point.

[Edan]

Most people on this thread probalby want this plan to fail.

Depends largely on what the end result will be. If it produces a Palestinian state living seperately along side Israel, with the Palestinians cracking down on the terrorist groups, and with Israel having security, I absolutely hope it succeeds.

If it produces yatss (yet another terrorist supporting state), like Afghanistan was, or Syria is, or that it melts down into even bigger and worse fighting and terrorism, then I absolutely hope it fails at the beginning, before much is invested in it, and that it gets replaced by a better peace process.

My problem isn't that there is a peace process. Mine is that I'm largely skeptical that this one will work.

[GePap]

Well, it depends on how do you define the targets of this plan. is it "To create a palestinian state" or is it "To bring peace to the middle east" or is it something else?

I don't think that Eli, for example, would mind the creation of a palestinian state, if he could know that it would REALLY bring peace. Thing is, he's deeply untrusting of the other side.

That is what I am talking about, though. The mistrust comes from thinking you know how they will act, obviously agaisnt you: after all, what do people ususally call those who are trusting? Guillible, as in, they didn't listen...to what, i don't know. My question is, are people more willing to keep their mistrust, or to try, even if it won;t be easy, to achieve peace. Trying to give up somehting lie ones mistrst is hard (I should know).

you can be frank here, too. That's what Internet Forums are for. I, personally, don't think that you want Iraqi reconstruction to fail. If I am wrong, don't be afraid to say so. I'd be dissapointed, and I'd like to debate you, but I think that this thread's original topic is more interesting, at this point.

BY Frank I meant chewing people out, which is not the thing to do in the forums. And also, I agree the topic is worthwhile, so if someone PM's me, it is not a threadjack. (I mostly reffer to opposin going to war, not anything currenlty going on, just to answer you direclty)

[Az]

That is what I am talking about, though. The mistrust comes from thinking you know how they will act, obviously agaisnt you: after all, what do people ususally call those who are trusting? Guillible, as in, they didn't listen...to what, i don't know. My question is, are people more willing to keep their mistrust, or to try, even if it won;t be easy, to achieve peace. Trying to give up somehting lie ones mistrst is hard (I should know).

Thing is, you can't just be trusting with the nation's safety. If I thought that this could pose a noticeable threat to the security of this country, I would oppose it, too.

I think that Israel can only win from such a move. We are not risking anything.

[Panag]

hi ,

since as always some people start to post some crap when it comes to Israel or the ME here is the original document ;

some people should read whats out there before they attack a country and its people , especially if they know zip about it , ....


have a nice day






Washington, DC
April 30, 2003


A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict


The following is a performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian, and institution-building fields, under the auspices of the Quartet [the United States, European Union, United Nations, and Russia]. The destination is a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005, as presented in President Bush’s speech of 24 June, and welcomed by the EU, Russia and the UN in the 16 July and 17 September Quartet Ministerial statements.

A two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will only be achieved through an end to violence and terrorism, when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror and willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty, and through Israel’s readiness to do what is necessary for a democratic Palestinian state to be established, and a clear, unambiguous acceptance by both parties of the goal of a negotiated settlement as described below. The Quartet will assist and facilitate implementation of the plan, starting in Phase I, including direct discussions between the parties as required. The plan establishes a realistic timeline for implementation. However, as a performance-based plan, progress will require and depend upon the good faith efforts of the parties, and their compliance with each of the obligations outlined below. Should the parties perform their obligations rapidly, progress within and through the phases may come sooner than indicated in the plan. Non-compliance with obligations will impede progress.

A settlement, negotiated between the parties, will result in the emergence of an independent, democratic, and viable Palestinian state living side by side in peace and security with Israel and its other neighbors. The settlement will resolve the Israel-Palestinian conflict, and end the occupation that began in 1967, based on the foundations of the Madrid Conference, the principle of land for peace, UNSCRs 242, 338 and 1397, agreements previously reached by the parties, and the initiative of Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah – endorsed by the Beirut Arab League Summit – calling for acceptance of Israel as a neighbor living in peace and security, in the context of a comprehensive settlement. This initiative is a vital element of international efforts to promote a comprehensive peace on all tracks, including the Syrian-Israeli and Lebanese-Israeli tracks.

The Quartet will meet regularly at senior levels to evaluate the parties' performance on implementation of the plan. In each phase, the parties are expected to perform their obligations in parallel, unless otherwise indicated.

Phase I: Ending Terror And Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions -- Present to May 2003
In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through restructured and effective Palestinian security services. Palestinians undertake comprehensive political reform in preparation for statehood, including drafting a Palestinian constitution, and free, fair and open elections upon the basis of those measures. Israel takes all necessary steps to help normalize Palestinian life. Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied from September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed at that time, as security performance and cooperation progress. Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the Mitchell report.

At the outset of Phase I:

Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.
Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.
Security

Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.
Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption.
GOI takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations, attacks on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction; destruction of Palestinian institutions and infrastructure; and other measures specified in the Tenet work plan.
Relying on existing mechanisms and on-the-ground resources, Quartet representatives begin informal monitoring and consult with the parties on establishment of a formal monitoring mechanism and its implementation.
Implementation, as previously agreed, of U.S. rebuilding, training and resumed security cooperation plan in collaboration with outside oversight board (U.S.–Egypt–Jordan). Quartet support for efforts to achieve a lasting, comprehensive cease-fire.
All Palestinian security organizations are consolidated into three services reporting to an empowered Interior Minister.
Restructured/retrained Palestinian security forces and IDF counterparts progressively resume security cooperation and other undertakings in implementation of the Tenet work plan, including regular senior-level meetings, with the participation of U.S. security officials.
Arab states cut off public and private funding and all other forms of support for groups supporting and engaging in violence and terror.
All donors providing budgetary support for the Palestinians channel these funds through the Palestinian Ministry of Finance's Single Treasury Account.
As comprehensive security performance moves forward, IDF withdraws progressively from areas occupied since September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed prior to September 28, 2000. Palestinian security forces redeploy to areas vacated by IDF.
Palestinian Institution-Building

Immediate action on credible process to produce draft constitution for Palestinian statehood. As rapidly as possible, constitutional committee circulates draft Palestinian constitution, based on strong parliamentary democracy and cabinet with empowered prime minister, for public comment/debate. Constitutional committee proposes draft document for submission after elections for approval by appropriate Palestinian institutions.
Appointment of interim prime minister or cabinet with empowered executive authority/decision-making body.
GOI fully facilitates travel of Palestinian officials for PLC and Cabinet sessions, internationally supervised security retraining, electoral and other reform activity, and other supportive measures related to the reform efforts.
Continued appointment of Palestinian ministers empowered to undertake fundamental reform. Completion of further steps to achieve genuine separation of powers, including any necessary Palestinian legal reforms for this purpose.
Establishment of independent Palestinian election commission. PLC reviews and revises election law.
Palestinian performance on judicial, administrative, and economic benchmarks, as established by the International Task Force on Palestinian Reform.
As early as possible, and based upon the above measures and in the context of open debate and transparent candidate selection/electoral campaign based on a free, multi-party process, Palestinians hold free, open, and fair elections.
GOI facilitates Task Force election assistance, registration of voters, movement of candidates and voting officials. Support for NGOs involved in the election process.
GOI reopens Palestinian Chamber of Commerce and other closed Palestinian institutions in East Jerusalem based on a commitment that these institutions operate strictly in accordance with prior agreements between the parties.
Humanitarian Response

Israel takes measures to improve the humanitarian situation. Israel and Palestinians implement in full all recommendations of the Bertini report to improve humanitarian conditions, lifting curfews and easing restrictions on movement of persons and goods, and allowing full, safe, and unfettered access of international and humanitarian personnel.
AHLC reviews the humanitarian situation and prospects for economic development in the West Bank and Gaza and launches a major donor assistance effort, including to the reform effort.
GOI and PA continue revenue clearance process and transfer of funds, including arrears, in accordance with agreed, transparent monitoring mechanism.
Civil Society

Continued donor support, including increased funding through PVOs/NGOs, for people to people programs, private sector development and civil society initiatives.
Settlements

GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.
Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).


Phase II: Transition -- June 2003-December 2003
In the second phase, efforts are focused on the option of creating an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and attributes of sovereignty, based on the new constitution, as a way station to a permanent status settlement. As has been noted, this goal can be achieved when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror, willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty. With such a leadership, reformed civil institutions and security structures, the Palestinians will have the active support of the Quartet and the broader international community in establishing an independent, viable, state.

Progress into Phase II will be based upon the consensus judgment of the Quartet of whether conditions are appropriate to proceed, taking into account performance of both parties. Furthering and sustaining efforts to normalize Palestinian lives and build Palestinian institutions, Phase II starts after Palestinian elections and ends with possible creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders in 2003. Its primary goals are continued comprehensive security performance and effective security cooperation, continued normalization of Palestinian life and institution-building, further building on and sustaining of the goals outlined in Phase I, ratification of a democratic Palestinian constitution, formal establishment of office of prime minister, consolidation of political reform, and the creation of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.

International Conference: Convened by the Quartet, in consultation with the parties, immediately after the successful conclusion of Palestinian elections, to support Palestinian economic recovery and launch a process, leading to establishment of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders.
Such a meeting would be inclusive, based on the goal of a comprehensive Middle East peace (including between Israel and Syria, and Israel and Lebanon), and based on the principles described in the preamble to this document.
Arab states restore pre-intifada links to Israel (trade offices, etc.).
Revival of multilateral engagement on issues including regional water resources, environment, economic development, refugees, and arms control issues.
New constitution for democratic, independent Palestinian state is finalized and approved by appropriate Palestinian institutions. Further elections, if required, should follow approval of the new constitution.
Empowered reform cabinet with office of prime minister formally established, consistent with draft constitution.
Continued comprehensive security performance, including effective security cooperation on the bases laid out in Phase I.
Creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders through a process of Israeli-Palestinian engagement, launched by the international conference. As part of this process, implementation of prior agreements, to enhance maximum territorial contiguity, including further action on settlements in conjunction with establishment of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.
Enhanced international role in monitoring transition, with the active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet.
Quartet members promote international recognition of Palestinian state, including possible UN membership.


Phase III: Permanent Status Agreement and End of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict -- 2004 – 2005
Progress into Phase III, based on consensus judgment of Quartet, and taking into account actions of both parties and Quartet monitoring. Phase III objectives are consolidation of reform and stabilization of Palestinian institutions, sustained, effective Palestinian security performance, and Israeli-Palestinian negotiations aimed at a permanent status agreement in 2005.

Second International Conference: Convened by Quartet, in consultation with the parties, at beginning of 2004 to endorse agreement reached on an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and formally to launch a process with the active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet, leading to a final, permanent status resolution in 2005, including on borders, Jerusalem, refugees, settlements; and, to support progress toward a comprehensive Middle East settlement between Israel and Lebanon and Israel and Syria, to be achieved as soon as possible.
Continued comprehensive, effective progress on the reform agenda laid out by the Task Force in preparation for final status agreement.
Continued sustained and effective security performance, and sustained, effective security cooperation on the bases laid out in Phase I.
International efforts to facilitate reform and stabilize Palestinian institutions and the Palestinian economy, in preparation for final status agreement.
Parties reach final and comprehensive permanent status agreement that ends the Israel-Palestinian conflict in 2005, through a settlement negotiated between the parties based on UNSCR 242, 338, and 1397, that ends the occupation that began in 1967, and includes an agreed, just, fair, and realistic solution to the refugee issue, and a negotiated resolution on the status of Jerusalem that takes into account the political and religious concerns of both sides, and protects the religious interests of Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide, and fulfills the vision of two states, Israel and sovereign, independent, democratic and viable Palestine, living side-by-side in peace and security.
Arab state acceptance of full normal relations with Israel and security for all the states of the region in the context of a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace.

[End]

Released on April 30, 2003

[Az]

Thanks, panag. I am not intending to read it, but it's a cool reference, anyway.