Palestinian Weapons Ship Caught(yet again)

[CyberGnu]

Oerdin: The sad thing is so many Euros complain that the US media is biased when I have seen the European press filled with anti-Israeli/Semitic filth. They often don't even pretend to be objective.

Gnu: Like what, exactly?

And specifics, please.

Oerdin:

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/feed.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/comme...ss110101c.shtml

http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israe...-2002-04-29.asp

http://www.therefinersfire.org/lindsay.htm

http://www.internationalwallofpraye...al-Lindsey.html

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4118_13.asp

http://www.worldpress.org/598.cfm

http://www.house.gov/international_...ope_020709.html

http://www.cjh.org/about/news/view_news.cfm?newsid=108

There are dozens and dozens more though I am sure you will dismiss them since your ideology blinds you to the truth.

Not one single example. Instead you give me a story from the JP, several stories from jewish organizations and finally some nice posturing from the US house of representatives. Surely the most objective account of European opinion.

But obviously it is my "ideology that blinds me to the truth". I'm assuming that if I didn't have my ideology, those articles would magically turn into actual european news articles?



So what is it going to be? Are you going to actually post any "anti-semitic filth" from ACTUAL european news media, or are you going to change your original post from "The sad thing is so many Euros complain that the US media is biased when I have seen the European press filled with anti-Israeli/Semitic filth. They often don't even pretend to be objective." to "The sad thing is so many Euros complain that the US media is biased when I have read unsubstantiated conjecture from obviously biased sources about the European press being filled with anti-Israeli/Semitic filth. They often don't even pretend to be objective."?

[GePap]

First, feelings can't be incorrect. second, there is no such thing as ancient land claims. It is not writen anywhere, it is not part of any law, or international accord. You live on the land you live if the government of that land has given you the right to live there. Jewish political control over that rea ended in the first century AD. That was it. Arabs were the vast majority there in 1900, had the tiles and deeds granted to them by differing political leaderships in the area, the Ottoman Sultans being the last, for the previous 300 plus years. They, and not the reatives of folks who lived there millenia ago, had the right to determine the future of thier communities afterwards, specially after WW1. They werer betrayed that right.

Are the Jews safer in Jerusalm, or Chicago? Hell, they are safer in Tehran! The answer to the Jewish question (such a Nazi term...), and to horrors like the Holocaust, are not states based on national identity based states (that is part of the porblems that lead to the holocaust!). The solution lies with unequivicable respect for universal human rights! And the human rights, civic rihgts, democratic rights of the Palestinains were violated endless times.

I have never said I support Palestinains terrorism. I don;t, but those acts in no way invalidate the rights of human beings, and unless you are here to tell me a jewish life, and jewish rights, count more than Plaestinian rights, that means that the greatest crime of the ME till is the gross violation of the civl rights of the Palestinians. 1200-1400 Jews have died from Plaestinains terrorism in 50 years...at least 5 times as many Plas, but the deaths of under 10,000 people is still less suffereing than the denial of rights to 3 million (5 if you count the diaspora of refugees).

[PLATO]

Okay, you are right about feelings. Correct that to say the conclusions you draw based upon your feelings are incorrect.

You live on the land you live if the government of that land has given you the right to live there.

Under this statement the Palestinians could be denied any right to live in Israel now. More importantly, here you recognize that governments can and do change. This comes about by various means.

They werer betrayed that right.

Again, according to your own statement, the government in power bestows the rights. This was apparently not their right. From a Human rights point of view, this could have been handled better. How? That one is beyond me. The outcome desired by the world conflicted with the will of the people there, but it was in tune with a group that could have no other homeland. This I believe is a root cause of current problems.

(such a Nazi term...,

Referenced only for the time frame we were talking about. (With GREAT hope you were not insinuating anything there.)

I have never said I support Palestinains terrorism. I don;t, but those acts in no way invalidate the rights of human beings

Nor does terrorism do anything to promote the ethical treatment of anyone. Again I will state that the way to the peace table and more rights is not through terrorism. In this way, Palestinians control a lot of there destiny.

The solution lies with unequivicable respect for universal human rights!

So true!! If only it wasn't the real world.

[CyberGnu]

Oerdinn: Your posted article also seems to be a non-sequiteur, as not one single news article is mentioned in it. I suspect that you were trying to show a general anti-semitism in Europe, however, which is just one enormous propaganda stunt... Just look at the polling in the article and the conclusions drawn:

Among the 2,500 people polled in late May and early June as part of our survey, 45 percent admitted to their perception that Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country

And this is anti-semitic how?

While 30 percent agreed with the statement that Jews have too much power in the business world.

Quite frankly, I would like to see the polling question. I don't know a single dane that would ever answer "yes" to this question as it stands.

Perhaps most telling, 62 percent said they believe the outbreak of anti-Semitic violence in Europe is the result of anti-Israel sentiment, not anti-Jewish feeling. The contrariness of their own attitudes suggests that Europeans are loath to admit that hatred of Jews is making a comeback.

Perhaps the most telling, this clearly shows what a piece of garbage the analysis of this polling is. How is this anti-semitic? We all know that the outbreak of recent violence against jews in Europe is almost exlusively by muslim groups (and the rest by the usual group of nutjobs that has been around forever). So if stating the obvious is anti-semitic, what was the point of the poll?

[CyberGnu]

GePap:

Why isn't there a smiley for "applause"

[PLATO]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Why isn't there a smiley for "applause"

That's a good question! I would like to see one myself. (Obviously for a different post )

[GePap]

Originally posted by PLATO1003
Under this statement the Palestinians could be denied any right to live in Israel now. More importantly, here you recognize that governments can and do change. This comes about by various means.

They are denied that right, and legally, yes, by the recognized state of Israel. And that goevrnments change does nothing to counterargue the fact that rights were denied.

Again, according to your own statement, the government in power bestows the rights. This was apparently not their right. From a Human rights point of view, this could have been handled better. How? That one is beyond me. The outcome desired by the world conflicted with the will of the people there, but it was in tune with a group that could have no other homeland. This I believe is a root cause of current problems.

The government bestows titles of property. Jews made up a minority of the lgally recognized citizens of Palestine in 1922. What you are ignoring here is the notion of what gives a government legitimacy 9and thus the right to decide rights)

So true!! If only it wasn't the real world.

So your support of the "liberation" of Iraq was based on some weird fantasy you are telling me does not exist?
Nationalism (under which zionism, and the ideology of the PLO both fall under) is one of the most corrosive and damaging ideologies of the last 200 years, and man can certainly live without it. As long as people falsely deify this false ideology, then you sad statement will continue to make a better world difficult.

[Dinner]

I'm not going to write a research paper just to satify you especially since you will no doubt find some excuse to deny the truth no matter what. I will however post more links in hopes that a third person might be interested in reading about the Anti-Isaeli bias in many of Europe's Leftist journals.

For those who are not so hateful as to believe everything written by Jews is a lie I give you...

http://www.yashanet.com/anti-semitism/ A nice collection or recent anti-semetic articles from around the world. Yes, some from Europe too.

http://www.honestreporting.com/a/Archives.asp Honest reporting critiques newsreports from around the world pointing out errors, distortions, and outright lies. There are several examples from European papers concerning their treatment of Israel.

http://www.theblackflag.org/2003/las...szlo030304.php A nice article on European anti-semitism and Pro-Arab bias.

http://www.jajz-ed.org.il/hasbara/he...isemitism.html Sure these is a Jewish site but many of their points are no less valid.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap

So your support of the "liberation" of Iraq was based on some weird fantasy you are telling me does not exist?
Nationalism (under which zionism, and the ideology of the PLO both fall under) is one of the most corrosive and damaging ideologies of the last 200 years, and man can certainly live without it. As long as people falsely deify this false ideology, then you sad statement will continue to make a better world difficult.

No GePap. I believe that univeral human rights is the goal we should all strive for. (Hence, part of the reason that I supported the War in Iraq). However, I recognize that the world has much to do to obtain this goal. While I can idealitically wish for these rights for the Palestinian and Israeli people, I am also pragmatic enough to understand why they are not there and why it will take some time before they will be.

Furthermore, my statement wasn't based upon nationalism. It was based upon the current human condition. What motivates Israeli and Palestinian alike.

When the Palestinian peoplr quit using terrorism to try to obtain their goals, then the world as a whole will hear their plight. Only then can they hope to address the problems that they face.

The government bestows titles of property. Jews made up a minority of the lgally recognized citizens of Palestine in 1922. What you are ignoring here is the notion of what gives a government legitimacy 9and thus the right to decide rights)

What does give any government it legitimacy? That is a good question. The best answer that I have to offer is "time". Probably not the politically correct answer. I would like to say the support of the people (which again is the goal), but history tends to disagree.

[CyberGnu]

I'm not going to write a research paper just to satify you especially since you will no doubt find some excuse to deny the truth no matter what. I will however post more links in hopes that a third person might be interested in reading about the Anti-Isaeli bias in many of Europe's Leftist journals.

WHAT TRUTH?!!!!

four more links, and still not one single example.

You claimed that you, yourself, had read this "anti-semtitic filth" in European media. Yet, when asked for specifics, you keep posting irrelevant links to biased editorials!!!!!!


Aaaaah, just another day in the pro-israeli camp, I suppose...

[Dinner]

Another thing that is truly disgusting is that Arafat and his gangsters in the PA continue to summarially execute any Palestinian who doesn't go along with his campaign of terrorism and endless warfare. He publicly executes his political detractors on the ground that they are aiding Israel, he publicly executes (without even a show trial) any Palestinian who sells land to a Jew, he summarially executes any Palestinian who assists in the capture of terrorists. This tale of woe and abuse goes on and on yet the very same Europeans who claim the just want peace and how endless drone on and on against Israel remain silent. Why?

[Dinner]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
four more links, and still not one single example.

Don't be so lazy. Follow the links and read the articles. Many of them directly quote articles. I strongly suspect that your plan is to simply keep demanding more and more always rejecting what is offered out of hand.

[GePap]

When the Palestinian peoplr quit using terrorism to try to obtain their goals, then the world as a whole will hear their plight. Only then can they hope to address the problems that they face.

As I said at first, the 10,000 or less deaths (majority Palestinian) in the last 50 years is the minor crime (if the more direct tragedy) of this conflict, the greater crime being the vast denial of civil rights. This is a fifty year old problem, so judging it all by the last 3 years makes little sense to me. The fact that peace has stalled has more to do with ingrained political choices form both sides than the violent acts.

While I can idealitically wish for these rights for the Palestinian and Israeli people, I am also pragmatic enough to understand why they are not there and why it will take some time before they will be.

I am pragmatic as well (I understand Israel is there to stay, that the unrestricted right of return won;t happen, so forht and so on), but I do not believe that intelligent debate on this can be held without acknowledging some basic truths about the conflict, and about what both sides have gone through.

as for the aspect of legitimacy: we live in a world where legitmacy is suposed tobe granted by national self-determination. As I said, i care ntohing for ther "national part", but I do think that self-determination does work. 200 years would not make an illegal government leigtimate, a theory of athority must lie behind it. The modern thoery is self-determination, and as long as that 9s the best we have, that is what we must use. The League of nations viokated its very ideas with every single mandate, and the UN also failed to live up to its ideals, with what happened in the mandate being one of the bigger failings.

[Ned]

In the United States, it seems most of the anti-Israeli sentiment is coming either from the left or from the Nazi right. The former is somewhat intellectually based. Even so, I have heard some really racist, anti-Jewish remarks from American liberals. At times, you would ask yourself if the person you were talking with were a Nazi.

I still wonder why the left has thrown in with the Arabs on the issue of Israel. I think it goes back to the days of USSR and of its siding heavily with the Arabs against Israel. I am almost sure that hand the USSR backed Israel against the Arabs, the sentiment on the left would be different today.

So, if I am right in this, European "anti-Semitism" really is political, confined primarily in the left and is a legacy of the cold war.

[Dinner]

Some of it has to do with the USSR sided with the Arabs, some of it has to do with siding with what they feel is a non-white group vs a white group (stupid I know but it is true), some of it has to do with anti-semitism, and yes some of it is actually legit critiques.

My estimate is it is half the first three and half the last one which means anti-semitism and racism are a major factor.