Palestinian Weapons Ship Caught(yet again)

[CyberGnu]

While I agree with your first sentence, I must add that East TN has one of the highest per capita PhD rates in the country. I know its hard to believe, but consider that The University of Tennessee, Oak ridge National labs, and TVA are all very heavy presences. You on the other hand should not assume that morons come from appalachia. This is very much a dated thought (with the exception of my ex-wife's husband, of course )

I thought rural appalachia still had the highest illiteracy rate in the US?

But, for your benefit, I'll redefine my comment as "just one moron in Indiana". would that be better?

WRT panag...If you will look at the history of his posts as compared to what eventually is confirmed, it is uncanny.

Huh, when I still read his posts they were usually disconnected fragments of sentences, normally ending with "come here and see for yourself".

WRT, NYT...The editorial political agenda has spilled into the "spin" on factual reporting. The pressure to create news in the face of an abscense of fact has turned a once great publication into nothing more than tabloid jounarlism...sad

That might be true for the domestic desk, which I usually don't read. But for international affairs (excluding the war on Iraq), I don't see any major difference between the reporting in the NYT and, for example, the swedish paper Svenska Dagbladet. It's quite a bit harder to quote DN, though, since few people here read swedish...

[Dinner]

The sad thing is so many Euros complain that the US media is biased when I have seen the European press filled with anti-Israeli/Semitic filth. They often don't even pretend to be objective.

[CyberGnu]

Edan:

Have you been paying attention to the news at all?

Are you referring to the domestic reporter, who was eventually exposed by the paper itself?

[CyberGnu]

Give me a break! Do you live under a rock? Please...PLEASE look around you. There is a real world there. Do you think that maybe...just maybe the Pals could be bringing on things themselves??

Yes Sir. The fight started when he hit me back.

[CyberGnu]

Just pick up a PA press announcement. They are all filled with lies. One of my particular favorites was the one about Jews sneaking in and poisoning Palestinian children at night. Or how about the ever-present denial he is involved with terrorism despite signed orders proving he gave the order? Face it; your golden boy is a ruthless baby killer and a vicious bigot.

Do you have a link?

[CyberGnu]

The sad thing is so many Euros complain that the US media is biased when I have seen the European press filled with anti-Israeli/Semitic filth. They often don't even pretend to be objective.

Like what, exactly?

And specifics, please.

[Panag]

Originally posted by GePap


this statement would only apply to the general suffering of palestinians since 2000 and the new outbreak of violence, though even then, many Israeli tactics such as home demolitions should be roundly condemned by anyone who believes int he notion of inalliable human rights.

Ignored is the basic suffering, most importantly, the denial of palestinian civil rights, since not only 1967, but 1947, if not 1922.That suffering the pals did not bring upon themselves anymore than black brought upon themselves their suffering in this country.

have you ever read what rights they have , .....

probably not , they have more rights then most people in some european countries , .....

you know who is responcible for the suffering they have right now , the people who spend money to make war , the people who funded the money behind today ship , the people in the bekaa from what ever so called group who smuggle heroin to europe and the states and one in a while bomb the northern parts of Israel , .... regardless if there are arabs or Jews or whatever on the exploding shell side , .....

the people that are to be blamed are the ones who fund terror , the ones that go out and buy for 25 usd a small pal flag to support chapter so and so , ....

the bloody foreigners who sit behind comp a world away and do zip nothing , only encourage and support terror , those are the people to blame , ....

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu


Do you have a link?

why would we post for time no such and such a link , if you can find the times you find one yourself , you dont read it anyway , you shall ones again claim it are lies , ....

[Dinner]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Like what, exactly?

And specifics, please.

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/feed.html

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-gross110101c.shtml

http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/Articles/Krauthammer-2002-04-29.asp

http://www.therefinersfire.org/lindsay.htm

http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-048-Europes-Media-Feed-Anti-Semitism-Hal-Lindsey.html

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4118_13.asp

http://www.worldpress.org/598.cfm

http://www.house.gov/international_relations/democratic/press_europe_020709.html

http://www.cjh.org/about/news/view_news.cfm?newsid=108

There are dozens and dozens more though I am sure you will dismiss them since your ideology blinds you to the truth.

[PLATO]

GePap, I have to respectfully disagree. Once the Palestinian government (in exile) took the position that Israel did not have the right to exist, then the Israeli's were forced to take steps to protect themselves. We should never forget that the Jewish population was vastly outnumbered and trying to survive in a country that is only 10 miles wide at some points.

Now...Could the Israeli's have made better choices along the way? Hindsight says that they obviously could have, but the protection of their civilian population and the security of their boarders has been and will remain paramount to the enforcement of inalienable human rights. Given their situation, I daresay that most rationale people would make the same choices.

[GePap]

Sorry panag, but Bullsh1t! and all the use of
smilies doesn;t maike anything you say even remotey right, correct, or even meaningfull. Oh yeah, i see all those european countries with people living under martial law, their property taken or destrpyed without any compensation, people barred form being able to find work, go to school, people having to jump trough hoops to buold new homes, most likely being unable to get the permits.

The soviet contitution guaranteed many rights as well Panag, and that meant nothing.

GePap, I have to respectfully disagree. Once the Palestinian government (in exile) took the position that Israel did not have the right to exist, then the Israeli's were forced to take steps to protect themselves. We should never forget that the Jewish population was vastly outnumbered and trying to survive in a country that is only 10 miles wide at some points.

And what ever happened to asking those people, who made up the majority, if they wanted these others to come into land they saw as their own, and making a new state out of it? what, was giving a bunch of Arabs in 1922, or 1947 the democratic choice whether they wanted to be forced ot abandon thier homes or become second class citizens in a new state too much for a bunch of arabs to handle? and what about the third choice? getting to ive and rule their own lands, as they saw fit, without being told what would be done???!!!

this to me, and to many others, is the most basic point, the clear, undeniable, point. In 1922 (and then in 1947) the palestians were told by outsiders, what their future was. They were never given the right to chose democratically, if they wanted to allow hundreads of thousand, or millions of foreign immigrants, into their land. Their most basic rights of self-detrmination were ignored, time after time, and not only by westerners or jews. That is the great sin of what happened in Palestine in 1922 and 47 and 67, and afterwards.

[Dinner]

Europe's Anti-Israeli Excuse

This was a particularly well written article.

Europe's Anti-Israel Excuse
By Abraham H. Foxman
National Director,
Anti-Defamation League

Throughout history a constant barometer for judging the level of hate and exclusion vs. the level of freedom and democracy in any society has been anti-Semitism -- how a country treats its Jewish citizens. Jews have been persecuted and delegitimized throughout history because of their perceived differences. Any society that can understand and accept Jews is typically more democratic, more open and accepting of "the other." This predictor has held true throughout the ages.

During the Holocaust, Jews and other minorities of Europe were dispatched to the camps and, ultimately, their deaths in an environment rife with anti-Semitism. Nearly 60 years later in a modern, democratic Europe that presumably had shed itself of the legacy of that era, Jews have again come under attack. During the past year and a half a troubling epidemic of anti-Jewish hatred, not isolated to any one country or community, has produced a climate of intimidation and fear in the Jewish communities of Europe. Never, as a Holocaust survivor, did I believe we would witness another eruption of anti-Semitism of such magnitude, in Europe of all places. But the resiliency of anti-Semitism is unparalleled. It rears its ugly head in far-flung places, like Malaysia and Japan, where there are no Jews.

The Anti-Defamation League has been taking the pulse of anti-Semitism in America for more than 40 years. Never did I expect that we would have to do the same in Europe, given the history and our expectation that European anti-Semitism, while not eradicated, would be so marginal and so rejected that it would not be a major concern.

What we found in the countries we surveyed -- Britain, France, Germany, Belgium and Denmark -- was shocking and disturbing. Classical anti-Semitism, coupled with a new form fueled by anti-Israel sentiment, has become a potent and dangerous mix in countries with enormous Muslim and Arab populations.

More than 1 million Jews live in these five nations, and their communities are under siege. Who would have believed that we would see the burning of synagogues and attacks on Jewish students, rabbis, Jewish institutions and Jewish owned-property? While European leaders have attempted to explain away these attacks as a fleeting response to events in the Middle East and not the harbinger of a more insidious and deeply ingrained hatred, the attitudes of average Europeans paint a far different picture. Among the 2,500 people polled in late May and early June as part of our survey, 45 percent admitted to their perception that Jews are more loyal to Israel than their own country, while 30 percent agreed with the statement that Jews have too much power in the business world. Perhaps most telling, 62 percent said they believe the outbreak of anti-Semitic violence in Europe is the result of anti-Israel sentiment, not anti-Jewish feeling. The contrariness of their own attitudes suggests that Europeans are loath to admit that hatred of Jews is making a comeback.

This view may make Europeans more comfortable in the face of what is happening in their countries, by suggesting that this time around, Jews are not the innocent victims but are themselves the victimizers in the Middle East. But the incredibly biased reaction against Israel seen in the poll -- despite the fact that Israel under former prime minister Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an independent state, and despite the fact that Palestinians have carried out a sustained campaign of terrorism against Israeli civilians -- speaks to a repressed hostility to Jews that may not be socially acceptable in post-Holocaust Europe. Still, even with such constraints, some 30 percent of Europeans are not averse to expressing their anti-Semitic beliefs openly and directly. Meanwhile, the Europeans have been tepid in their support for the U.S. war on terrorism and especially the Bush administration's efforts to broker an end to Israeli-Palestinian bloodshed. The Europeans seek to appease Saddam Hussein and other threats to the Western world while blaming Israel, not the Palestinian Authority, for the crisis. All while they minimize the extent of anti-Semitism in Europe and fail to immediately condemn horrific acts of harassment and vandalism. The message to Europe's burgeoning immigrant population is that there is a certain level of acceptance for intolerance. It is time for Europe to assume responsibility for a situation of its own making. The combination of significant, openly expressed anti-Jewish bias together with irrational anti-Israel opinions creates a climate of great concern for the Jews of Europe. It is not surprising that in such an atmosphere Muslim residents feel free to attack Jewish students and religious institutions not because they are Israelis but because they are Jews. And it is not surprising that some European officials have begun telling Jewish leaders to advise their numbers to avoid public displays of Jewishness, instead of promising to protect their Jewish communities.

European leaders and officials must see what is going on for what it is -- outright anti-Semitism -- and condemn the revival of this ancient hatred that had its greatest manifestations on the same continent.

They must acknowledge that the anti-Israel vilification across Western Europe is unacceptable. The recent comparisons of Israelis to Nazis, to Jews as the executors of "massacres" and even as the killers of Christ -- these do not fall into the category of legitimate criticism of a sovereign state. They create the very climate that questions the future of Jewish life in Europe.

Abraham H. Foxman, a Holocaust survivor, is national director of the Anti-Defamation League. This op-ed originally appeared in The Washington Post on June 27, 2002.

© 2002 Washington Post

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap

this to me, and to many others, is the most basic point, the clear, undeniable, point. In 1922 (and then in 1947) the palestians were told by outsiders, what their future was. They were never given the right to chose democratically, if they wanted to allow hundreads of thousand, or millions of foreign immigrants, into their land. Their most basic rights of self-detrmination were ignored, time after time, and not only by westerners or jews. That is the great sin of what happened in Palestine in 1922 and 47 and 67, and afterwards.

I think the record shows that the Arabs originally welcomed the Jews to "Syria" until Faisal was tossed out and the British kept the Palestinian portion of Syria for itself. From that point on, their main position is not that they did not want an separate Palestinian state inside Palestine, they wanted a Palestinian state covering the whole of Palestine with no Jewish state.

Since 1920, the Palestinians have had the prevention or destruction of Israel as a primary goal. Some may have given up this goal in recent years. Most Palestinians, though, have not.

[GePap]

And Faisal, who came from the Hijaz and had never set one foot on eihter Palestine or Syria, was somehow some Palestinains democratic leader all of a sudden? And what right did Syrians out of Damascus had to tell the people of Palestine what to do?

Since 1920, the Palestinians have had the prevention or destruction of Israel as a primary goal.

There was no Israel in 1922, and Britian did not get Mandate rights over the territories until 1922. No way what you say ban even be factually correct.

[PLATO]

GePap, I understand your feelings. Unfortunately they are incorrect. This is a case of going back to first causes. The Jewish claim to this land is ancient, just as the Arab claim is. To say that the Jews don't have a right to a homeland in their ancient land is ridiculous. This is what the Arabs would have done if the outside world had not intervened.

Additionally, you are a staunch supporter of the world acting in a unified manner to solve problems to world security. The "Jewish Question" on the heals of WWII was obviously one that the world had to answer. No longer could the Jewish people be reliant on other countries to provide security for them and frankly most countries didn't want the problem. There was no better solution. You cannot now turn back the clock. The road to peace and the road to securing human rights for the Palestinians does NOT start with strapping on a bomb and boarding a crowded bus.