France issues 'please explain' to US

[Kidlicious]

French,

This might help you understand the anti-French attitude in America. It wasn't that you were anti-war. It was that many of you were acting anti-American. We don't know if this attempt to stop the bashing is aimed at improving the relationship or pointing out that Americans hate the French. You were the ones who held street demonstrations where protestors held up anti-American slogans. As yet I don't know of any anti-French demonstrations.

You were against the war, fine. You should have left it at that. But you didn't, and complaining about us being a little insulted is suspect.

[Spiffor]

Except in the partisan written media and one wide-audience program (Les Guignols de l'Info), I haven't seen any anti-Americanism in the French media, except in one occurence. Maybe I'm wrong, but please direct me to the smear campaigns towards the US organized by the French media. I'm curious.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kidicious
French,

This might help you understand the anti-French attitude in America. It wasn't that you were anti-war.

Sorry, but I don't think so. When I see some anti-French extraordinaires such as Lancer and Walruskkkch, it appears the anti-French sentiment comes from the fact that 'we stabbed you in the back'

I can understand the Yanjs don't like our classical antiamericanism, which is real. However, this antiamericanism has had a very significant revival since Bush has been elected.
I remember, in highschool, nobody understood why I was 'anti-American', and I was kind of the school's freak. Nowadays, many people wonder why I'm not more extreme ?

[Whaleboy]

Indeed, I was referring to the government and media policies. People are free to think and speak as they wish in Britain, France and (unfortunately now to a lesser extent due to the USA PATRIOT act [surveillance et al]) America.

There are people that dislike America in Britain, France, Russia, Germany, plenty of them in Iraq (believe me... its scary), and probably even some in America itself!

What is unAmerican behavior? What is American behavior? I always get concerned when a society starts definining specific behaviours that are somehow inherently "good", and a broader range of others that are inherently "bad", or in this case "unAmerican". In this context, that would mean the descriptions of some of the anti-war, anti-bush, environmentalist, and anti-capitalist protestors and their arguments, which seem to be perfectly valid elsewhere in the Western world.

America has a proud history of dissent, from the abolisionists to Martin Luther King. To suddenly brand dissent against the leaders and the majority opinion as somehow "unAmerican", is a fallacy, and somewhat ignorant.

[HershOstropoler]

Spiffor:

Really odd, hmm? I get accused of anti-americanism on a regular basis on certain online forums, yet in real life conversations with people here, I usually try to put the brakes on other people's condemnation of America.

The Bushies are real PR geniusses.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Except in the partisan written media and one wide-audience program (Les Guignols de l'Info), I haven't seen any anti-Americanism in the French media, except in one occurence. Maybe I'm wrong, but please direct me to the smear campaigns towards the US organized by the French media. I'm curious.

I don't see a smear campaign in our media. Maybe it's because I have more reputable sources. I'm sure you could find it if you wanted to. There is a bit anti-French attitude by the Bush administration, but I don't think it is severe.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by elijah
America has a proud history of dissent, from the abolisionists to Martin Luther King. To suddenly brand dissent against the leaders and the majority opinion as somehow "unAmerican", is a fallacy, and somewhat ignorant.

Sadly, that's not really the case. Sure we have had dissent in this country, but there has always been a negative reaction to it. Dissent has always been branded as unAmerican in this country.

[DanS]

The French gov't is getting what it deserves. Actively working against the US and taking the side of a totalitarian dictatorship.

The French people should feel ashamed about France carrying a totalitarian dictator's water.

[Whaleboy]

Kidicious: I studied extensively the media coverage of Gulf War II, its consequences and surrounding issues (like the France issue), and one thing become clear. Most of the American news stations, noteably CNN, ABC and Fox were highly biased towards America. The British media was more objective, the BBC was still biased towards the Americans and British, while Channel 4 (an independent news organisation "for the intelligentsia") seemed to be most objective.

The American networks were easily as biased towards America, as Al Jazeera was towards Iraq, although the latter had a much greater quality of analysis, and quantity of reports and sources on the ground. Much of the US news network material came direct from American government and army.

While there is no active anti-french attitude by Bush (if this was no so, he would have been made an international pariah more so than already), there is much passive anti-francism. The lack of condemnation of some of the faulty reporting (which was operating in US govt interests) is a clear example of this.

Unfortunately, I have to refute your piece about there being no "smear campaign". If you watched Fox news from late february until a couple of weeks ago, you would eat your words.

Not only is "dumbed down" media patronising and weak, it is downright dangerous, as the lack of analysis leaves it wide open to bias, which would otherwise be checked by reason.

[Whaleboy]

Dissent was branded as unAmerican at the time, in the case of the abolishionists by those who would keep slavery. In the case of Martin Luther King, those who would keep the inequality of black people, groups like the KKK.

The establishment at the time dislikes dissent, but history judges it as an honourable and most American of things. Something I remember said "Without dissent, there is no America".

What would you suggest the alternative be, when people have a different view than the government? Blindly follow, not make an issue of it, leaving the running of the nation to politicians and businessmen with their own agenda. For the undesireable to triumph, good people must do nothing (that from the perspective of someone who sees the war as bad, but can be expanded to view as all dissent).

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by DanS
The French gov't is getting what it deserves. Actively working against the US and taking the side of a totalitarian dictatorship.

"Taking the side of a totalitarian dictatorship?"

Accusations of that level require a bit more than a bald assertion.

As a smart man, I'm sure you understand that it's well possible to be against the US' recent actions regarding Iraq, yet not be on Saddam's side. Ends do not justify the means and all that.

So, let's hear your reasoning.

[Whaleboy]

"The French gov't is getting what it deserves. Actively working against the US and taking the side of a totalitarian dictatorship."

Im sure the French will see it differently. Your view is no less subjective that the French, thus it should not be forced on the French. Unfortunately, forcing subjectives on equal subjectives seems to be an American trend in foreign policy of late, one that I would ideally like to see confined to the history books.

Actively working against the US?? What are you? The international policeman? Such vigilante/gangster mentality can only be bad, and I sincerely hope that it is only held by you. America is NOT holier than thou, it is NOT inherantly good (nor is any society), thus you should not regard it as such. It is merely a nation, a piece of paper.

Americans are human first, American second. In that respect, you are no different to the French.

[Whaleboy]

France was never working for Saddam Hussein. There seems to be a perception that people who protest against the war, and take action against the war, are somehow supportive of Saddam Hussein.

I am a libertarian, I hate dictatorships more than most, and given the choice of Iraq and America, I would choose America. However, I do not believe that America would force its subjective view onto a no-less valid subjective. That is the major concern of many of the more intelligent anti-war protesters, we are not all loving Saddam Hussein. I believe the view to the contrary was very popular on some US news networks in the run up to Gulf War II.

[DanS]

Jaakko: The French actively worked against the US on the issue. DeVillepin was in Africa rounding up opposition to us on an issue that we viewed as vital to our national interests.

France was carrying Saddam's water.

[Ted Striker]

Part of that bias you are talking about comes from a deep set shared belief that all Americans have. One thing that Americans do during a crisis is to band together and stick together until the crisis is overwith.

Dissent is positive and welcome before any action is ever taken. THAT is the time for argument.

But once the President has made a decision, it's understood that there is no going back and that we all need to rally around until the crisis is overwith. When there are lives on the line it becomes counterproductive to start questioning life or death decisions that have already been made.

Pretty much everyone feels that way. Except for turncoat whores like Jane Fonda.