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  • #166
    Originally posted by DanS
    Jaakko: The French actively worked against the US on the issue. DeVillepin was in Africa rounding up opposition to us on an issue that we viewed as vital to our national interests.

    France was carrying Saddam's water.
    Yup.

    It's one thing to offer a different viewpoint but going actively against the US, and especially for a power play of all things.
    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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    • #167
      Hardly. Part of free speech is that the time to speak and protest is down to the individual. If someone wishes to protest, or speak out at any event, at any time, then it is their perogative to do so, and if they fail in achieving what they want, then while outsiders may see their actions as counterproductive and irrelevant, many others will see it is honourable. Part of the mentality of protesting is the act of removing ones name (figuratively) from the events that one does not wish to be part of. That is in histories view.

      There is no specific time for argument. If the protestors feel that their protesting will harm an action that they believe is wrong, then it is logical for them to protest.

      DanS: You have failed to show how trying to stop the Americans from doing what they did, was "carrying Saddam's water".
      "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
      "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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      • #168
        I hate it that people can't be reasonable and seperate having different opinions from being friends.

        Why is a country like France which has a long history of friendship towards the US suddenly no longer an ally just because they didn't back your war against Iraq?
        I just don't get it...
        Does being an ally of the US mean that one has to do everything the US tells one?
        "Cogito Ergo Sum" - Rene Descartes, French Mathematician

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        • #169
          The French knew what they were doing supported Saddam's dictatorship. Unless you believe the French to be fools...
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

          Comment

          • #170
            Originally posted by Kidicious
            Sure we have had dissent in this country, but there has always been a negative reaction to it.
            If it was popular, it wouldn't really be dissent.
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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            • #171
              Have you ever played any kind of team sport elijah?

              The best coaches I have ever had will yell and scream and degrade our team all over the place in practice.

              But when we have a big game, the coach will get real quiet and just let us play.
              We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

              Comment

              • #172
                The belief that Americans should stick together in times of difficulty has no application to a large society. In this context, it becomes something of an analogy of lemmings, following their leaders of the precipice of patriotism, irrationality, ignorance, suppression of voice, and fundamentally, self-destruction.

                Accusing the French of power-play is something of a hyprocracy when you consider that it was all the American foreign policy was doing during the time of neo-colonialism and globalisation (1945 - present). You have also failed to provide evidence for that.
                "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                Comment

                • #173
                  Originally posted by badman
                  I hate it that people can't be reasonable and seperate having different opinions from being friends.

                  Why is a country like France which has a long history of friendship towards the US suddenly no longer an ally just because they didn't back your war against Iraq?
                  I just don't get it...
                  Does being an ally of the US mean that one has to do everything the US tells one?
                  USA would have understood if France had said no.

                  But what people are angry about is that they actively worked against us in the same way that an enemy would.
                  We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

                  Comment

                  • #174
                    just because they didn't back your war against Iraq?

                    Please get it through your thick skulls. It's one thing to say you don't agree. It's quite another to send your foreign minister to round up support against it.
                    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                    Comment

                    • #175
                      "The French knew what they were doing supported Saddam's dictatorship. Unless you believe the French to be fools... "

                      Then you are saying that I, and others that protested, with good intellectual, and libertarian (anti-saddam, but objective) reasons, are "stupid". Perhaps that childish insult could be extended to those who cannot understand others points of view

                      Team sport is hardly a good analogy for international relations. However, you have confirmed the "us and them" mentality that is prevalent among many who support this war. Ethnocentrism is no basis for international relations, it should stay on the rugby/football/cricket/hockey fields.
                      "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                      "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                      Comment

                      • #176
                        Then you are saying

                        Don't put words in my mouth.
                        I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                        Comment

                        • #177
                          Originally posted by elijah
                          The belief that Americans should stick together in times of difficulty has no application to a large society. In this context, it becomes something of an analogy of lemmings, following their leaders of the precipice of patriotism, irrationality, ignorance, suppression of voice, and fundamentally, self-destruction.

                          Accusing the French of power-play is something of a hyprocracy when you consider that it was all the American foreign policy was doing during the time of neo-colonialism and globalisation (1945 - present). You have also failed to provide evidence for that.
                          No. America didn't have to make a power play because we were already the #1 power anyway by 1945. Western Europe was decimated so USA filled in the rest of the vaccuum.

                          I don't think you've experienced teamwork, you would instinctivley know what I was talking about. And yes it does apply to the larger society. One of the reasons America kicked so much ass in WW2 was the cohesivness on the home front. People banned together and made sacrifices so we could keep the troops supplied. That made the war shorter and less bloody. If people had started dissented around 1943 after the US had committed, things would have been MUCH worse off.

                          Of course you are Libertarian so I know your views are to the extreme. Screw the government eh? They are stealing from you...
                          We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

                          Comment

                          • #178
                            "Please get it through your thick skulls. It's one thing to say you don't agree. It's quite another to send your foreign minister to round up support against it."

                            You mean in the same way that the US bribed, bullied and blackmailed people to become part of the coalition of the "willing"? Look at Turkeys $1B dollar aid package, that was waved in front of them should they support the war.

                            If I was looking for international allies to support me verbally and economically against another who I disagreed with, I would do the same as the French and Americans (though in that latter case, using more moral means).

                            The actions of an enemy would be to form an alliance to go to war with one. The actions of a critic would be to find fellow voices. The French were doign nothing wrong when they did exactly the same as the Americans (ends not means of course)

                            "USA would have understood if France had said no."

                            So it understands the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese, and the millions who protested?
                            "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                            "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                            Comment

                            • #179
                              "Please get it through your thick skulls. It's one thing to say you don't agree. It's quite another to send your foreign minister to round up support against it."

                              Sure, but it's the French's right to advocate against the war just like it's America's right to advocate in favor of war.

                              Well, perhaps America and "old Europe" really shouldn't be allies any longer... but then who would be your ally except for Poland, Spain and the UK? I think those aren't too many allies...
                              "Cogito Ergo Sum" - Rene Descartes, French Mathematician

                              Comment

                              • #180
                                UK is a better ally than 10 Frances and Germanys anyway.
                                We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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