Should Germany support operation N. Korean freedom?

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Cruddy
As for your first 3 point - I disagree totally. You cannot even get non NK radio in that country, let alone TV or newspapers. It's totally isolated, and most of the people there perceive the outside world as hostile.

If you think China is not going to support NK - ah, go study Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia again. That might give you an idea of how the Chinese operate. Even if they don't support with direct military intervention (and I think they would - it's a moot point until it happens) there's a lot of other support they could give.

Even a US occupation of N Korea - all opposing conventional forces beaten in the field - would not prevent succesful guerrila operations for years to come.

They wrote Sun Tzu. If you haven't, I suggest you do.

You don't understand the Chinese. At least my wife is Chinese. I have been to China many times. I understand their pinyin system. I speak a little Chinese. I study Chinese history extensively. I have spoken with ordinary Chinese, whether from Taiwan or from Mainland. If you think you understand Chinese better than me, you will be disappointed.

The truth is that China's priority is to build up the country economically and to reunify with Taiwan. Having good relationship with SK and US is far more important than NK. Chinese, however, will play the game to extract concessions from us, and if our government plays the game right. NK regime will be destroyed.

As for North Koreans resisting, don't give me laughs. It's true that these people were being taught how evil and murderous Americans and their Southern brothers are, but a simple direct contact between the sides will quickly dispel the lies of the North Korean regime. As far as the loyalty of a starving people goes, a few sacks of grains and some chocolates for children will sway their loyalties completely.

Oh, I forgot to mention that a complete blockade of North Korea requires Chinese assistance.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless


1) You don't understand the Chinese. At least my wife is Chinese. I have been to China many times. I understand their pinyin system. I speak a little Chinese. I study Chinese history extensively. I have spoken with ordinary Chinese, whether from Taiwan or from Mainland. If you think you understand Chinese better than me, you will be disappointed.

2) The truth is that China's priority is to build up the country economically and to reunify with Taiwan. Having good relationship with SK and US is far more important than NK. Chinese, however, will play the game to extract concessions from us, and if our government plays the game right. NK regime will be destroyed.

3) As for North Koreans resisting, don't give me laughs. It's true that these people were being taught how evil and murderous Americans and their Southern brothers are, but a simple direct contact between the sides will quickly dispel the lies of the North Korean regime. As far as the loyalty of a starving people goes, a few sacks of grains and some chocolates for children will sway their loyalties completely.

4) Oh, I forgot to mention that a complete blockade of North Korea requires Chinese assistance.

1) I refer you to the parenthethised words in my quote "It is a moot point until it happens". I do question if you''re understanding of the Chinese military is the same as mine - but I will concede your knowledge of the Chinese culture and social fabric must be far superior.

2) This is a Chinese leadership dilemma. If they fail to support NK, then a lot of their Communist brotherhood doctrine discredited. It could reduce their power considerably. It would be tempting for them - I agree Taiwan is a major prize for them - but would the Taiwanese want reunification with the mainland? It's a dilemma for the US too.

3) DO NOT CONFUSE them with the Iraqis, under economic blockade for over a decade and with no air force. They would resist. Wouldn't YOU resist if someone invaded your country? "Oh but we're different to that". I disagree - the level of indoctrination is probably about the same. Also, the degree of militarisation is on a different scale.

4) No argument from me here.

[raghar]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless


There are some major and decisive differences compared to Vietnam:

1. NK is isolated. Even the Chinese won't support them this time.

What about UN - another war in few years. @_@

2. NK regime has no support in population. Its people and its military will abandon the regime as soon as they can see what bright future awaits them.

When they will get bombed they would say huray our regime. And if they would have US occupation they would hate US.

3. SK is much stronger than NK.

And what? How did you counted it?

4. The US is much stronger compared to Vietnam era.

Actually weaker and had exercise in midle east. They didn't recall some units from Saudi Arabia for no reason.
Hey you shouldn't mistake economy with reality. Economy numbers should rise they are expected to do so, but real arms are expensive and you'd have much less tham.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Cruddy

2) This is a Chinese leadership dilemma. If they fail to support NK, then a lot of their Communist brotherhood doctrine discredited. It could reduce their power considerably. It would be tempting for them - I agree Taiwan is a major prize for them - but would the Taiwanese want reunification with the mainland? It's a dilemma for the US too.

Yes, I agree that US selling out Taiwan is not a good option. But US pulling out of Korea completely is acceptable to every party involved.

3) DO NOT CONFUSE them with the Iraqis, under economic blockade for over a decade and with no air force. They would resist. Wouldn't YOU resist if someone invaded your country? "Oh but we're different to that". I disagree - the level of indoctrination is probably about the same. Also, the degree of militarisation is on a different scale.

North Koreans will not be invaded by a foreign power, they will be liberated by their compatriots from the South.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless


Yes, I agree that US selling out Taiwan is not a good option. But US pulling out of Korea completely is acceptable to every party involved.



North Koreans will not be invaded by a foreign power, they will be liberated by their compatriots from the South.

Your first point is totally unacceptable to the S Koreans. You think they want a common border with China? They'd last a fast five minutes. The Chinese leadership would not hesitate to gain more territory - such a useful, industrialised, productive country to add to their list of acquisitions. I'm not saying the Chinese PEOPLE would want this - but since when did the leadership care what the people wanted?

Your second point; a recipe for another civil war. Could the US and China stay out of it? I think not, maybe not directly - but supplying arms and munitions to another bloody war zone.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Cruddy


Your first point is totally unacceptable to the S Koreans. You think they want a common border with China? They'd last a fast five minutes. The Chinese leadership would not hesitate to gain more territory - such a useful, industrialised, productive country to add to their list of acquisitions. I'm not saying the Chinese PEOPLE would want this - but since when did the leadership care what the people wanted?

No, China is not the warmongering and expantionist fool you think it is. I suggest you to get more informed in this matter.

[TCO]

If SK wants our protection, there will have to be some agreement on terms. We may have to give or they may have to give. but in the end, I doubt they will get to have US protection without some agreement on the nature of the threat.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Cruddy

Your second point; a recipe for another civil war. Could the US and China stay out of it? I think not, maybe not directly - but supplying arms and munitions to another bloody war zone.

What I meant was a joint military operation against the North. US providing fire support and SK provinding most of the ground force. China stays neutral.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless


No, China is not the warmongering and expantionist fool you think it is. I suggest you to get more informed in this matter.

The people of Tibet and Hong Kong would disagree with you on this one. I would not say "fool". "Extremely clever and patient" would be my line.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Cruddy


I wouldn't know. I don't speak Korean. But your government's lack of commitment to peace would have any rival reaching for the plutonium producing reactors at full speed ahead.

The medias current demonization frenzy of N Korea does not speak well of the possibility of peace in the region.

It is very easy to destroy and make enemies. It is very dificult to create and make friends.

Just taking the easy path is not going to do anyone any good - and as stated, if you want any help with a war in Korea, you are unlikely to get it.

Even S Korea favours the peace and reconcilliation approach. Maybe it's because they've got a lot to lose? You've already set most Muslim nations against you (outside of Kuwait). You want the Chinese up in arms too?

The US should learn to quit while its ahead.

Are you saying that the US is primarily in the wrong and NK in the right? If you think they are unfairly demonized, you should read the triplet story. That place is wierd...

[Dinner]

Not only Tibet and hong Kong but also Macao, part of Kashmir, border wars with both the Soviets and Vietnamese, they tried to take the Spratley's 4-5 years ago but the Japanese navy burned the Chinese encampment, and I haven't even brought up the issue of Taiwan yet.

[TCO]

Originally posted by raghar

Actually weaker and had exercise in midle east. They didn't recall some units from Saudi Arabia for no reason.
Hey you shouldn't mistake economy with reality. Economy numbers should rise they are expected to do so, but real arms are expensive and you'd have much less tham.

Yes, the forces are smaller. But there is much less of a Soviet threat and less Europe prescence needed.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Cruddy


The people of Tibet and Hong Kong would disagree with you on this one. I would not say "fool". "Extremely clever and patient" would be my line.

I know you would bring up the issue about Tibet and Hongkong.

The relationship China has with these places is very different than with Korea. The Chinese, and their culture, put great emphasis on 'Unification'. A government/dynasty that can't keep the country unified has always been considered as failed in Chinese history.

Hong Kong was leased to UK for 99 years in 1898. In 1997, the lease ran out and Hong Kong was legally handed over to China by the UK. The history behind Tibet is a bit more complicated:

In 1722, Tibet was occupied by the last rampaging Mongol horde under Tsering Rabdan. The Dalai Lama asked the Qing empire for assistance under the condition that Tibet would recognize Qing suzerainity, allow stationing of Qing troops, and pay yearly tribute to the imperial court. This relationship lasted until the fall of the Qing empire in 1912. Then under British assistance, Tibet declared its independence which lasted until 1951. Almost every Chinese I know never consider Tibet as a foreign nation.

Basically Chinese Communists are compelled to take Hong Kong, Tibet, Taiwan, and maybe Outer Mongolia. BTW regarding the Outer Mongolia, it's still part of China on Taiwanese maps.

Korea had a very different relationship with China. For almost 1700 years (except Mongol era), China has never directly ruled over the peninsular. During the last dynasty, Korea stayed pretty much independent except for paying yearly tributes. Chinese never considered Korea as their land. Chinese leaders are not compelled to annex Korea, unlike in the cases you mentioned above, and they are fully aware of the dire consequences if they resort to outright aggression.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Oerdin
they tried to take the Spratley's 4-5 years ago but the Japanese navy burned the Chinese encampment,

There were no Japanese involvement in Spratley Islands. The Japanese Navy did burn down an Taiwanese encampment, however.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by GP


1) Are you saying that the US is primarily in the wrong and NK in the right?

2) If you think they are unfairly demonized, you should read the triplet story. That place is wierd...

1) I am saying that it is frankly hypocrtical of the US to make a fuss over a Communist country acquiring nuclear weapons while giving the nod to places like Israel and South Africa.

I am in favour of nuclear proliferation among nations, quite simply, because it REDUCES the chance of warfare. Not eliminates.. and I'm completely opposed to nukes in the hands of ORGANISATIONS with moral compunction about using them (like Al Qaeda).

2) There are many nations, many places, with practices as abhorrent or more abhorrent than N Korea. Why this sudden media focus... unless there's a "softening up" of the American psyche going on.

Some examples; Saudi Arabia, SIerra Leone, Brazil, Columbia, Sudan, China, Zimbabwe... why isn't the media having much to report from those countries? Is it because the US has no plans to invade them at the moment?